BMWs brilliance is it by design or is it due to method?

[Zeuk in Oz]

the link in my last post that is based on real road crashes in this country, its not hypothetical.

Wasn't trying to suggest that it was, Rob, just adding my own link to real world crash statistics.

It has always amazed me that driving on roads is far more dangerous than just about any other activity we can do regularly, including flying, and yet the majority of the great unwashed buy junk cars with no realworld safety because they like the look of them, or they are cheap etc.

Speaking of flying, I'm not sure I'm all that keen on flying in an Airbus........

[rob101]

Wasn't trying to suggest that it was, Rob, just adding my own link to real world crash statistics.

It has always amazed me that driving on roads is far more dangerous than just about any other activity we can do regularly, including flying, and yet the majority of the great unwashed buy junk cars with no realworld safety because they like the look of them, or they are cheap etc.

Speaking of flying, I'm not sure I'm all that keen on flying in an Airbus........

it is indeed, but one thing that amazes me is that my e28 my "bomb" lol is safer than most average cars that were built in the 90s!

as for airbus, too many french engineers involved. I've worked with french engineers
jesus what a PITA they were!

[genphreak]

i might be a bit cynical here but i think some of the hype by the manufacturers about airbags etc are to SELL more cars.We live in a consumer society we must always buy the newer better bigger....I am not saying that airbags et al dont assist in safety.We can still buy parts for our cars.a mate here has a 99 falcon ute,some parts are aready listed as not available.

LOL, moral of that story Paul? Perhaps it is Don't buy a new car, just buy 3 old ones so you don't have to rely on the manufacturer any more than you can trust it to make the car last. What a sorry state of affairs- we just deserve to choke to death!

As for ABS and ESP, etc. the real studies show people just learn to drive their cars to their limits, which is why you tend to see younger people tailgating closer than older people (ok, perhaps just one of the reasons ) as they have learned on cars with these features and know the car stops quicker/handles better: Instead of benefitting form the increased safety margin, they just drive harder inside the danger zone. It is only natural behaviour- how many of us are not in a hurry to get places?

One other thing I know- the manufacturers are just playing with consumers- they just love selling new cars and coming up with reasons we should buy them so much they can barely offer us a decent way to make them last. Worse, they could never ever imagine improving the ones we've already invested in and getting service income instead.

Seems to me they are missing out on a big market there... the parts/mods/upgrades industry is barely waking on this stuff too- if the manufacturers let it carry on they will soon find people making older cars into better than new ones... (since so may of the new ones are really not so crash hot)

but actually I am wrong there... it would have happened long ago, but they just get (our) regulators to put a good stop to it every time it happens.... and threatens a multinational's profits.

[Alexlind123]

ummm i think you might be reading the aggressivity part
which is how likely the occupants of the other car is likely to get hurt,
not the occupants of the car itself

I was wondering why some diahtsus and hyundais were lower...

[joshua43214]

I think it has both to do with high quality engineering and the owners. I used to service a Mazda for a guy at an indy shop I worked for 8 years alot. This guy was as anal about his car as any Euro car owner I have ever seen, after it had abuot 100k on it, it started to cost a boatload of money to maintain. Part after part just failed, it became common to give the guy estimates over $500.00 for repairs or maintaiance every time he came in for an oil change.

Suburu used to make these unbelievably bullet proof cars that would run forever with almost no attention, and eventualy fall apart at about 200k from overall neglect and rust. If folks maintained them as well as BMW owners did, they would run forever. Same goes for Toyota.

BMW (and Euro) car owners in general maintain there cars better, so they last longer while and stay looking good. Many american car owners will ignore a rattle, or a slow moving window, and just shrug it off, then they get hit with a huge estimate at 120k or so and dump the car. The BMW never gets that bad in the first place since potential problems are addressed right away.

BMW's and the e34 in specific is one of the best engineered cars I have ever seen. When you consider how complex the e34 is, even by todays standards, its incredible that the are as trouble free as they are.

[rob101]

LOL, moral of that story Paul? Perhaps it is Don't buy a new car, just buy 3 old ones so you don't have to rely on the manufacturer any more than you can trust it to make the car last. What a sorry state of affairs- we just deserve to choke to death! ...........

hmmmmmmm the 3 car idea isn't sounding that bad
i might consider upgrading to an e39 (or e38 muhaha) sooner or later
but as far as i am concerned
whats the point in spending the same amount of money on a new shitbox (probably a holden astra or similar) that isn't as safe, fast or luxurious
its a no brainer IMO.

[Zeuk in Oz]

whats the point in spending the same amount of money on a new shitbox (probably a holden astra or similar) that isn't as safe, fast or luxurious
its a no brainer IMO.

You are talking to the converted, Rob.

That is why I would imagine that not one of us on this forum bought their E34 new. We have decided that a well engineered used car is better, safer, nicer etc etc than a new $hitbox.

And long may the myth of high maintenance costs for old BMWs continue as this makes them affordable second hand.

[Ross]

I think the impression here in the US is that DAIMLER-Chrysler is run by the Germans not the other way around. Good thing otherwise we would have Lee Iacocca selling rebadged K- cars as Mercs. What the f is a mungwheel?

[genphreak]

You are talking to the converted, Rob.

That is why I would imagine that not one of us on this forum bought their E34 new. We have decided that a well engineered used car is better, safer, nicer etc etc than a new $hitbox.

And long may the myth of high maintenance costs for old BMWs continue as this makes them affordable second hand.

Rob; I think u should check out the e39 carefully before thinking too much more about it. Many around here say (ie they don't just feel) that a rebuilt e34 might be better

Zeuk- very good point indeed. However there is certainly a high 'love cost' ie making sure one treats them right is not a simple thing to learn for the uninitiated. And it is expensive (and takes time) to learn it too.

But therein lies an interesting challenge- who bought an e34 new that still has one today? Mattyb knew of 2 I think. What we need is someone on the forum that did this... then we'd be a more 'well-rounded' community...

[Zeuk in Oz]

LOL, moral of that story Paul? Perhaps it is Don't buy a new car, just buy 3 old ones so you don't have to rely on the manufacturer any more than you can trust it to make the car last. What a sorry state of affairs- we just deserve to choke to death!

As for ABS and ESP, etc. the real studies show people just learn to drive their cars to their limits, which is why you tend to see younger people tailgating closer than older people (ok, perhaps just one of the reasons ) as they have learned on cars with these features and know the car stops quicker/handles better: Instead of benefitting form the increased safety margin, they just drive harder inside the danger zone. It is only natural behaviour- how many of us are not in a hurry to get places?

One other thing I know- the manufacturers are just playing with consumers- they just love selling new cars and coming up with reasons we should buy them so much they can barely offer us a decent way to make them last. Worse, they could never ever imagine improving the ones we've already invested in and getting service income instead.

Seems to me they are missing out on a big market there... the parts/mods/upgrades industry is barely waking on this stuff too- if the manufacturers let it carry on they will soon find people making older cars into better than new ones... (since so may of the new ones are really not so crash hot)

but actually I am wrong there... it would have happened long ago, but they just get (our) regulators to put a good stop to it every time it happens.... and threatens a multinational's profits.

Some interesting points, Nick.

Manufacturers will never want to produce a car that can last forever because they are answerable to their shareholders first, governments that subsidise them second and employees last so wish to keep on making more and more cars. This concept was first seen in the US in the fifties, I believe, where the big 3 would bring out a new "improved" model each year with a different headlight or taillight or even a new fin !

Then they would market it by saying "be the first in your street to own this year's model XXXXX with new improved features." They would sell it with glamorous models or television ads and everyone was safe and secure knowing they were driving the latest.

Australia, and to a lesser degree, Europe adopted some of these practices due to the fact that especially Ford and GM had large market share in these markets. Possibly the largest stumbling block was Europe where consumerism never quite caught on to the extent it did in Oz or the US.

Getting back to your point Nick, I certainly feel it is extremely healthy to be cynical about anything government or big business wants us to do.

However, I feel that safety features like ABS, traction control, ESP, airbags (especially windowbags), active head restraints, seat belt pretensioners and to a lesser extent brake assist are actually of some merit. They all came more or less at once, I presume, due to the increased reliability, lower cost and higher processing ability of the computers that are required to run them.

It is interesting to note that some mechanical safety devices, such as Audi's excellent steel band that caused seatbelts to be tightened in the case of a frontal crash due to the movement of the engine being forced backwwards in the engine bay, were dumped because we, the great unwashed, preferred front airbags. A bit like the superior beta video system compared with the popular VHS.

That is not to say that anything has changed. Manufacturers are still trying to get us to update and are now, in my opinion, bringing out models with highly questionable features. I just cannot get excited about distance measuring cruise control or infrared forward seeing ability that relies on taking your eyes off the road and viewing a monitior in the dash.

Your point about drivers, particularly the young, driving to the potential of the new cars is possibly true to a certain extent, but this does not make these features useless.

I know in my youth I committed most of the sins that are now being done by our young drivers, with no hope of survival if anything went wrong. The young will always live on the edge as far as they are able, that will never change as they believe they are immortal.

The area in which I live has lost so many young drivers on our roads over the past 5 years it is a major tragedy. All of my 4 kids have lost friends and have had to attend their funerals. This makes no difference to the way young people in this area drive !

As far as upgrading older cars with some of these new safety features is concerned, the only manufacturer that I am aware of that is doing it is Mercedes. They are retro fitting a drivers airbag to the W124 models here in Oz, and possibly also some S class cars.

The problem with retro fitting safety featurs like these, I presume, is complexity and therefore cost. In some cases this technology, I presume, needs to be designed in at manufacture, and even if it can be added, possibly requires wholesale replacement of major components.

The only truly reliable thing about all of this is that the only constant is the unwavering greed that vehicle manufacturers have as their guiding policy.