Ot

[Maki]

Vietnam would be an excellent example of soldiers being blamed for the actions of their leadership. Soldiers were spat upon when they returned from Vietnam, can you imagine what that must have felt like?

Er, I generally try to stay out of OT discussions, particularly political ones (not that I'm a prolific poster anywhere). But I'm over 50, I remember the Vietnam era, and I can't recall ANY Vietnam vet I was personally acquainted with having been spat upon or even having anecdotes of people spitting on other vets THEY knew. Most of the guys I was acquainted with were relieved to be back and working hard at having a good time. Some were less happy (even screwed up), but their bitterness was directed more at what their government had made them do than the reception they got once they returned. That's my perception, anyway, from fairly late in the game, about 1971, when I was attending a community college that had a fairly high veteran enrollment. (No, I didn't serve myself.)

Beyond my personal recollections, which are limited ... say you were a veteran of a shooting war. You had seen men die and killed other men yourself. You're walking down the street and someone hurls a gob at you. That individual is going down for the count.

Only a person with a death wish is likely to spit in the face of a man they don't know, whose most recent job may have involved exposure to and/or participation in sudden, violent death. Does that make any sense?

A sentiment I think was widespread was that many people were uncomfortable about what was going on in Vietnam (especially after '68) and felt uneasy about acknowledging it. So returning vets most often were greeted with a crashing silence.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Born in 1980, so I was not around. But, I have read quite a bit of history, and have seen reports of that in multiple sources. I think that some, not all, of society wrongly directed their anger at the troops that were only following orders.

Edit: I did a quick Google search, and found this:
"Were you ever spat upon when you returned home to the United States?" asked syndicated columnist Greene of the Vietnam veterans among his readership. He received over 1000 letters in reply, many recounting specific details of just such a painfully remembered incident. Evidently this recollection of "hippies" (as they are often called in the letters) spitting on combat veterans has become one of the war's most unpleasant, enduring images. Conversely, other letters describe acts of generosity toward servicemen, from the typical free beers at the bar to a free show. But the over 200 letters excerpted here do more than confirm popular notions. They bring back the incidents of 20 years ago vividly, but not always with bitterness. And they reveal healing solidarity among veterans in response to what for many was not a happy homecoming. Recommended.

It's a review of a non-fiction book called "Homecoming: When the soldiers returned from Vietnam", by Bob Greene. Off of the Amazon site.

[calmloki]

I floated off the coast of the south on the WW2 can Mansfield doing 5" gun support and interdiction. Came back to the states and went back to sunny Westpac for a tour on the nuke cruiser Long Beach - mostly up near Hanoi doing plane guidance for our land based bombers. We were not popular with our smaller yellow brothers.
No one spit on me stateside, I wanted to hang with the hippies, and in my circle hippy was not a pergorative word. I don't think most of us felt a stirring amount of pride while we lost 2-3 times as many men each month as we have lost to date in Iraq. There was NOT any where near the "support the troops" hoopla there is now. Lots of guilt among the people I know who went there - not much of a movement to alleviate that guilt. No one called me baby killer either, but I would imagine that feels like being spat upon..

[Maki]

Born in 1980, so I was not around. But, I have read quite a bit of history, and have seen reports of that in multiple sources. I think that some, not all, of society wrongly directed their anger at the troops that were only following orders.

Edit: I did a quick Google search, and found this:
"Were you ever spat upon when you returned home to the United States?" asked syndicated columnist Greene of the Vietnam veterans among his readership. He received over 1000 letters in reply, many recounting specific details of just such a painfully remembered incident. Evidently this recollection of "hippies" (as they are often called in the letters) spitting on combat veterans has become one of the war's most unpleasant, enduring images. Conversely, other letters describe acts of generosity toward servicemen, from the typical free beers at the bar to a free show. But the over 200 letters excerpted here do more than confirm popular notions. They bring back the incidents of 20 years ago vividly, but not always with bitterness. And they reveal healing solidarity among veterans in response to what for many was not a happy homecoming. Recommended.

It's a review of a non-fiction book called "Homecoming: When the soldiers returned from Vietnam", by Bob Greene. Off of the Amazon site.

More than 8 million people served in the US armed forces between 1965 and 1973, if Wikipedia is correct. Was somebody spit upon at one point? Probably. Did someone get his melon cracked in response? I hope so.

Historical accounts from the period, both oral and written, are often loaded with hyperbole. In light of what happened, that may never change.

Here's a link to address the issue, far better expressed than I could do in haste.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Did_...pit_050803.htm

And here's one about Bob Greene, and the collapse of his credibility as a journalist.

http://www.esquire.com/features/arti..._greene_1.html

[Maki]

Sorry to belabor the point, but here's a better link on the "spitting protester" issue:

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

[trumpetr]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

[calmloki]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

Ahem, I think the media would like to show the nasty side of death: great ratings if you're cynical, desire to show the truth if you're idealistic. Our Gubmint has decreed that it would be unpatriotic and a disservice to the troops to show even the caskets of our dead being unloaded. That shames me for our country - showing the guts and blood of VietNam helped bring about the end of the war and quelled the tripe about the nobility of war. Damn us for allowing Empire to take hold. Nice backlash against the hippy one-worlders.

[Robin-535im]

All I want to know is -- who here has a maid to make their bed?

[DaveVoorhis]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

What kind of bloody nonsense is this? Where on earth are troops fighting for "our rights to sit at our computers?" One might argue that some troops are fighting for honorable or justifiable reasons, but fighting for "our rights" hasn't existed since WWII. As for what the "media does not want us to see," there is plenty that the media would like us to see that is blocked by government edict. The media is not at fault here.

[Zeuk in Oz]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

I think this might be a little bit of overstatement !

By "we" I presume you mean USA and I presume that you no longer have a draft for your servicemen who serve in war zones.

This then means that all of the servicemen and women "fighting for our (USA's) rights" are career soldiers. Does invading a sovereign country (Iraq), no matter how corrupt or evil it might be, constitute fighting for our rights ? I would argue not, and we have Australian servicemen and women in Iraq as well.

What we don't have is your death count.

What did they think that joining the armed forces meant ? Playing in a band ? What is the old saying : "join the armed forces, travel to exciting lands, meet new people and kill them."

The people I feel sorry for are the families and relatives of those who have died or been injured in any conflict. They are those who suffer most ! Through no fault of their own.

The big issue in Australia during the Vietnam war years was that we had National Service during that time and national servicemen were being sent to Vietnam. This was a ballot system where only about a third of eligible young men did national service. Now we also only have career servicemen and women.

As Hawkeye Pearce said in an episode of MASH : if there weren't any soldiers we wouldn't have wars.

Hawkeye was perhaps not totally correct but there is something in it.