Book rates: the saga continues

[Black 535i]

I think that it is sommon sense to say that we should shop around for work that we want done on our cars and we will always get varying prices. I charge varying amounts for my CAD services based on things such as: time, square footage, number drawing sheets, etc. so the dealer can charge what they like and if we don't like it we can go somewhere else. I lose jobs because of my prices sometimes and then make up for it later down the road. An over the phone estimate will NEVER be accurate and to drive around and ask them to price the work is time consuming and unwarranted. Just check out some costs and go with your gut. If you do not like the work after go somewhere else.

This is a continuation of this thread:

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16530

I was really curious about their "book rates", so I decided to call around, just for fun. I called seven different BMW dealerships in the Toronto area, and asked for a labor quote to:

1. Install a windshield wiper drive rod
2. Install two front turn signal lenses
3. Install a new brake light switch

The quotes below reflect ONLY labor. I provided my own parts. Remember, all these dealers are within 30km of each other.

BMW Autohaus
Wiper rod: 2.5 hours
Turn signal lenses: 2.0 hours
Brake switch: 1.0 hours

Budds' BMW
Wiper rod: 3.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 2.0 hours

Town + Country BMW
Wiper rod: 4.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 1.5 hours

BMW of Mississauga
Wiper rod: 0.8 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 0.5 hours

Maranello BMW
Wiper rod: What the **** is that?
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 0.6 hours

Parkview BMW
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

BMW Toronto (flagship store)
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

At $107/hr, these differences are substantial. $450 seperates the highest quote from the lowest.

This all started when I got IRATE when one dealership told me they were going to charge me 6 hours' labor for 90 minutes' work, because they go "by the book rate". How, then, can five different BMW dealerships within a half-hour drive of one another give five differing quotes (nevermind the two dealerships who couldn't be bothered returning a customer's call)?

Does anyone have an explanation for what's going on here, besides fraud? I wonder if the press would be interested in my story. No doubt these discrepancies bilk BMW customers out of many thousands of dollars every day.

What the **** is going on here, where is this so-called 'book', and why does it seem like no two dealers use the same one?

[Jay 535i]

Okay, I will let it rest. This is my last post in this thread.

But you guys are still missing my point.

You're saying that rates vary based on the circumstances. That would be fine if the service rep hadn't told me otherwise. She told me that the book is the only variable, and that is clearly not true.

No two CAD jobs are the same, but one brake switch installation is much the same as another. That's why there's a book. If they're using the book only as a guide, they should say so. Had I gone along with them blindly, I would have paid $450 more than at another BMW dealer down the street, and I was never made aware of that fact. On the contrary, I was lead to believe that all dealers would charge me the same. I was lied to for the purpose of extortion, and that is what's unethical and bothersome.

[Bill R.]

an example my sister recently built a new house, they acted as their own general contractors and subbed out all the work that they couldn't do. For the block walls for the exterior of the house they got over 10 quotes, the price variation from one mason to another ranged more than 40k dollars to do the same job, same thing with the painting contractors, the only fields that were very close to each other with less than a 10% variation were the electricians and the plumbers. More than 10 quotes for each and they came up within 10% of each other without seeing anybody elses quotes. All other areas on the house had tremendous variations. So its the same with everything , you have to shop around for the best combination of price ,quality,service etc. Dealer are just like anybody else,someones going to push for more money somewhere. Get over it.

Okay, I will let it rest. This is my last post in this thread.

But you guys are still missing my point.

You're saying that rates vary based on the circumstances. That would be fine if the service rep hadn't told me otherwise. She told me that the book is the only variable, and that is clearly not true.

No two CAD jobs are the same, but one brake switch installation is much the same as another. That's why there's a book. If they're using the book only as a guide, they should say so. Had I gone along with them blindly, I would have paid $450 more than at another BMW dealer down the street, and I was never made aware of that fact. On the contrary, I was lead to believe that all dealers would charge me the same. I was lied to for the purpose of extortion, and that is what's unethical and bothersome.

[Jay 535i]

an example my sister recently built a new house, they acted as their own general contractors and subbed out all the work that they couldn't do. For the block walls for the exterior of the house they got over 10 quotes, the price variation from one mason to another ranged more than 40k dollars to do the same job, same thing with the painting contractors, the only fields that were very close to each other with less than a 10% variation were the electricians and the plumbers. More than 10 quotes for each and they came up within 10% of each other without seeing anybody elses quotes. All other areas on the house had tremendous variations. So its the same with everything , you have to shop around for the best combination of price ,quality,service etc. Dealer are just like anybody else,someones going to push for more money somewhere. Get over it.

But those contractors didn't all claim to be derriving their quotes from the same book, did they?

OF COURSE you should shop around for most things. But you wouldn't expect that shopping 10 different Wal-Marts would get you 10 different quotes for Cheaper By The Dozen on DVD, would you?

Sorry, I know I broke my own rule and posted again. But this analogy is not, um, analogous. Compare apples and apples, please, and remember that, unlike the subcontractors in your story, BMW claims to use a book that results in consistent pricing across multiple dealers.

[dacoyote]

LOL... it's the horse that will not die.....

/me gets out his S & W problem solver

[Derek A.]

You are failing to understand the dynamic that is at work here.

You call dealer. Ask your questions. Service writer may not know a 15 year ols car. May know nothing. Has to ask a tech for information on the job. The tech shoots from the hip because the service writer says - "guy on phone - wants x done on 15 year old car - has own parts.. what do I tell him" Which puts it in the ballpark. Keep in mind that the KSD - BMW flat rates still exist. You were given an ESTIMATE !.

When you have the repair done - there is still going to be some variance:
1. Shop labor rate.
2. Additional time to complete the job as something was seized up or somthing else was discovered. Remember you did not let the tech diagnose the job.
3. Additional parts that need to be used.
4. Shop supplies.

Anything that you are going to get over the phone is just a rough ESTIMATE. The shop needs an opporunity to look at the car - before they can firm anything up. And as I mentioned before - when you are quoting a specific job on the phone the writer knows that you are no going to bite. As you are only shopping price.

So get over the consipiracy theory. The BMW KSD exists and dealers do use it. If I had a copy here I would post it and let you play with it - its a ****ed up program.

D.-

But those contractors didn't all claim to be derriving their quotes from the same book, did they?

OF COURSE you should shop around for most things. But you wouldn't expect that shopping 10 different Wal-Marts would get you 10 different quotes for Cheaper By The Dozen on DVD, would you?

Sorry, I know I broke my own rule and posted again. But this analogy is not, um, analogous. Compare apples and apples, please, and remember that, unlike the subcontractors in your story, BMW claims to use a book that results in consistent pricing across multiple dealers.

[Jay 535i]

You are failing to understand the dynamic that is at work here.

You call dealer. Ask your questions. Service writer may not know a 15 year ols car. May know nothing. Has to ask a tech for information on the job. The tech shoots from the hip because the service writer says - "guy on phone - wants x done on 15 year old car - has own parts.. what do I tell him" Which puts it in the ballpark. Keep in mind that the KSD - BMW flat rates still exist. You were given an ESTIMATE !.

...

Anything that you are going to get over the phone is just a rough ESTIMATE. The shop needs an opporunity to look at the car - before they can firm anything up. And as I mentioned before - when you are quoting a specific job on the phone the writer knows that you are no going to bite. As you are only shopping price.

So get over the consipiracy theory. The BMW KSD exists and dealers do use it. If I had a copy here I would post it and let you play with it - its a ****ed up program.

D.-

All the guys I spoke with on the phone told me they had that program right in front of them and were quoting from it. The numbers I was given were emphatically not estimates, but quotes. I agree that there are other variables in repairing a car, but there should not be any variance in what different people read out of a book.

The BMW service rep confirmed this. They charge what's in the book, regardless of other factors. The book rate already takes incidental and unexpected tasks into account. What you descibe may be normal in the industry, but not at BMW, according to that service rep.

If you're right, then she's a liar. That's what I'm upset about.

I'm a reasonable and intelligent person. I know a reasonable estimate from an extortion attempt. That's why I walked when she gave me the $650 quote. I accept that that's just the way it is and there's nothing I can do about it, but give me some credit and concede that it's wrong rather than suggesting it's all down to my inability to grasp the concept of an estimate.

I'm getting a lot of flack here seemingly for saying things I never said. It's simple:

1. The service rep at BMW claims that all dealers charge identical prices for the same job.

2. My research condraticted her statement, suggesting some sort of wrongdoing or incompetence on her part.

That's all I ever suggested. I don't know why it makes you feel better to blame it on me. My 1-2 argument above is pretty straightforward. I don't see how you can argue with it.

Man, I'm really aggravated by some of the posts here. I feel like I'm getting a lot of undeserved disrepect and attitude for sticking my neck out and investing my own time on behalf of all BMW owners. Many of you basically insist that there must be something wrong with me. I guess it's easier for you to write me off as some sort of retard or naive child rather that than admit I may have a point. Don't know why, but it bugs me.

[dacoyote]

... naive child rather that than admit I may have a point. Don't know why, but it bugs me.

If you really though they really would all quote the same.. then naive yes... weclome to getting old... you learn stuff... glad you learned it the easy way

You do have a point... my issue with the entire thread is I though we had already hashed this out... not if the lady at BMW is a tard (she is)

[SRR2]

investing my own time on behalf of all BMW owners.

This may be part of the problem. Most of us already know that a) different dealers charge different prices, b) NO ONE likes a customer walking in off the street with unknown parts in hand, c) "b" goes double for an old car that may present unkown difficulties that are unanticipated by the flat rate standards, d) no quote over the phone to a stranger is going to be the best possible, and e) the best way to get good, fairly-priced service is to develop a long-term relationship with your dealer/indie/whatever and be willing to pay a fair price for quality work.

[DanDombrowski]

Jay, I completely understand your complaint, and I honestly feel there's no need to argue it. If they're all using the same book, they should all come up with the same answer, and they don't.

Slightly aside, but slightly to the point, I've been to places that claim I need to change the timing belt on my old Volvo, because if it brakes, it will ruin the motor. When I ask them where they determined that the engine is an interference engine (which, BTW, it isn't), they claim its from some heavenly shop manual that all shops use. This of course was at an independant shop, and therefore not held to BMW or other corporate standards, but my point is that they may have the book, it just sits unused on a dusty shelf while they pull numbers out of their ass.

One other scenario I thought may be contributing to this is that the shop is possibly quoting more sub-jobs than another shop. For example, when you say you need the corner lamps replaced, mabye one shop was able to find a labor estimate for the corner lamps and quoted you for that, while the next shop just assumed that the headlights had to be pulled to install them. They're both quoting from the book, just slightly different jobs to accomplish the same task.

I want to say thanks for taking the time to document your research.