Book rates: the saga continues

[Jay 535i]

an example my sister recently built a new house, they acted as their own general contractors and subbed out all the work that they couldn't do. For the block walls for the exterior of the house they got over 10 quotes, the price variation from one mason to another ranged more than 40k dollars to do the same job, same thing with the painting contractors, the only fields that were very close to each other with less than a 10% variation were the electricians and the plumbers. More than 10 quotes for each and they came up within 10% of each other without seeing anybody elses quotes. All other areas on the house had tremendous variations. So its the same with everything , you have to shop around for the best combination of price ,quality,service etc. Dealer are just like anybody else,someones going to push for more money somewhere. Get over it.

But those contractors didn't all claim to be derriving their quotes from the same book, did they?

OF COURSE you should shop around for most things. But you wouldn't expect that shopping 10 different Wal-Marts would get you 10 different quotes for Cheaper By The Dozen on DVD, would you?

Sorry, I know I broke my own rule and posted again. But this analogy is not, um, analogous. Compare apples and apples, please, and remember that, unlike the subcontractors in your story, BMW claims to use a book that results in consistent pricing across multiple dealers.

[dacoyote]

LOL... it's the horse that will not die.....

/me gets out his S & W problem solver

[Robin-535im]

Jay - I'm with you 1000%. But wait wait - I still have two cents to toss in..

It is both unethical and commonplace to overcharge people... but not against the law. That's why you should Always call THREE PLACES for any work / part you're not an expert in.

Each place you call, ask a ton of questions and learn all you can. The first call you sound like a doofus. The next one you call, you know the buzzwords and can sound 1/2 way intelligent on the topic. By the third call you have a good understanding of the problem and three quotes... and can make a pretty good decision.

I'm with you Jay. There are lots of good, honest shops out there... and lots that put profit ahead of best value for the customer. They *should* be all the same, but apparently they've found some leeway in the system to "use the book" yet still "interpret the book on the fly."

[Derek A.]

You are failing to understand the dynamic that is at work here.

You call dealer. Ask your questions. Service writer may not know a 15 year ols car. May know nothing. Has to ask a tech for information on the job. The tech shoots from the hip because the service writer says - "guy on phone - wants x done on 15 year old car - has own parts.. what do I tell him" Which puts it in the ballpark. Keep in mind that the KSD - BMW flat rates still exist. You were given an ESTIMATE !.

When you have the repair done - there is still going to be some variance:
1. Shop labor rate.
2. Additional time to complete the job as something was seized up or somthing else was discovered. Remember you did not let the tech diagnose the job.
3. Additional parts that need to be used.
4. Shop supplies.

Anything that you are going to get over the phone is just a rough ESTIMATE. The shop needs an opporunity to look at the car - before they can firm anything up. And as I mentioned before - when you are quoting a specific job on the phone the writer knows that you are no going to bite. As you are only shopping price.

So get over the consipiracy theory. The BMW KSD exists and dealers do use it. If I had a copy here I would post it and let you play with it - its a ****ed up program.

D.-

But those contractors didn't all claim to be derriving their quotes from the same book, did they?

OF COURSE you should shop around for most things. But you wouldn't expect that shopping 10 different Wal-Marts would get you 10 different quotes for Cheaper By The Dozen on DVD, would you?

Sorry, I know I broke my own rule and posted again. But this analogy is not, um, analogous. Compare apples and apples, please, and remember that, unlike the subcontractors in your story, BMW claims to use a book that results in consistent pricing across multiple dealers.

[Zeuk in Oz]

Bill R got it right - welcome to the real world !

At the sake of moving this thread up again may I just make a couple of observations.

1. Jaylebo, this line of enquiry will drive you nuts : there is no fundamental law or design overseeing motor vehicle repairs. There is no automotive god who makes sure that everything in vehicle repairs is fair.

The world is a nasty place and this includes when it comes to paying for a mechanic's services, dealer or not.

Shop around but realise that not everything is measurable in terms of money - it might well be that the best choice amongst your quotes is one of the dearer ones as they might be the only crowd who know what they are doing.

2. What you appear to be looking for is a mechanic you can trust. This cannot usually be identified with a range of quotes - it takes time to build a relationship with someone.

3. With due respect, your apparently almost evical enthusiasm and attitude on this quest of yours is easily identified by those you are questioning.

Have you considered that some might have given you high quotes to get rid of you - they didn't want to do your work because they were afraid you might be a PITA !

4. Please listen to wise men and women like Bill R on this forum, seek their opinions and take their advice !

[Jay 535i]

You are failing to understand the dynamic that is at work here.

You call dealer. Ask your questions. Service writer may not know a 15 year ols car. May know nothing. Has to ask a tech for information on the job. The tech shoots from the hip because the service writer says - "guy on phone - wants x done on 15 year old car - has own parts.. what do I tell him" Which puts it in the ballpark. Keep in mind that the KSD - BMW flat rates still exist. You were given an ESTIMATE !.

...

Anything that you are going to get over the phone is just a rough ESTIMATE. The shop needs an opporunity to look at the car - before they can firm anything up. And as I mentioned before - when you are quoting a specific job on the phone the writer knows that you are no going to bite. As you are only shopping price.

So get over the consipiracy theory. The BMW KSD exists and dealers do use it. If I had a copy here I would post it and let you play with it - its a ****ed up program.

D.-

All the guys I spoke with on the phone told me they had that program right in front of them and were quoting from it. The numbers I was given were emphatically not estimates, but quotes. I agree that there are other variables in repairing a car, but there should not be any variance in what different people read out of a book.

The BMW service rep confirmed this. They charge what's in the book, regardless of other factors. The book rate already takes incidental and unexpected tasks into account. What you descibe may be normal in the industry, but not at BMW, according to that service rep.

If you're right, then she's a liar. That's what I'm upset about.

I'm a reasonable and intelligent person. I know a reasonable estimate from an extortion attempt. That's why I walked when she gave me the $650 quote. I accept that that's just the way it is and there's nothing I can do about it, but give me some credit and concede that it's wrong rather than suggesting it's all down to my inability to grasp the concept of an estimate.

I'm getting a lot of flack here seemingly for saying things I never said. It's simple:

1. The service rep at BMW claims that all dealers charge identical prices for the same job.

2. My research condraticted her statement, suggesting some sort of wrongdoing or incompetence on her part.

That's all I ever suggested. I don't know why it makes you feel better to blame it on me. My 1-2 argument above is pretty straightforward. I don't see how you can argue with it.

Man, I'm really aggravated by some of the posts here. I feel like I'm getting a lot of undeserved disrepect and attitude for sticking my neck out and investing my own time on behalf of all BMW owners. Many of you basically insist that there must be something wrong with me. I guess it's easier for you to write me off as some sort of retard or naive child rather that than admit I may have a point. Don't know why, but it bugs me.

[Jon K]

I work at Jaguar in Willow Grove, PA. I will attest that the service writers there use JAGUAR numbers. They do not "estimate" or anything. However, if you call over the phone saying "i want this installed, i have the part, how much?" they may throw a ballpark number out there because 1) they don't get money on your part 2) they don't know the condtion/quality of the part 3) they don't know what condition the surrounding to-be-worked-on parts are in. You would not believe how many people call in saying they need "brake pads" yet the car comes in with rotors with 1/8" lips on them. What's worse: Getting a $120 quote for just "pads" or beng told you need another $300 in labor for rotors as well?

Another for instance:

Customer brings car in with tires to be mounted and balanced. Turns out he needs brakes. We didn't see the car before giving a quote. It'd be a lot cheaper to do the brakes and tires at once since the wheels will be off. We all know wheels are easy to take off with a gun and lift, but none the less the book says x amount of time for wheels to come off. So now he's frustrated that we mounted tires and he will have to come back for brakes later to pass inspection, while he could have knocked both out at the same time.

[willobmw]

BMW always says that the dealer sets the final price. If you go to different dealers, the parts prices will be different too. Thank BMWNA for that.
Willobmw

[RobPatt]

Quote:
"1. The service rep at BMW claims that all dealers charge identical prices for the same job.

2. My research condraticted her statement, suggesting some sort of wrongdoing or incompetence on her part."

You're right at #2 and thanks for the research. You and I know more about our E34s than the girl who gave you the quote. The lesson learned for me is do it yourself and spend the money saved on labor for more parts. Just fact of life if you want to run a nice E34 on a reasonable budget. Your research supports this. We're in to drive a nice car for minimal unnecessary expense, they're out to maximize profits on the lastest models in all their glory and complexity. For 17 max year old cars now, I do think our problems are pretty simple and there's no way I would pay maint costs on a new bimmer... (thus again, we appreciate what we have in the E34).
Cheers,
Rob.

[Gayle]

I get it Jay. You were told "They charge what's in the book, regardless of other factors." There should not be any variance if there is one book and no other factors are involved. And no you are not stupid, just pissed. And I appreciate your research. And I appreciate Bill R.'s report of his sisters construction.