Leakdown results are in, and the winner is...

[uberhahn]

Leakdown results in. '94 530i, 5-speed. 91K miles.

Cyl 1 - 15%
Cyl 2 - 14%
Cyl 3 - 19%
Cyl 4 - 6%
Cyl 5 - 10%
Cyl 6 - 22%
Cyl 7 - 11%
Cyl 8 - 7%

The test was done twice, with the same results.
Two files attached. One is an idle quality test with no load, showing Cyl 1, 3, 6 as discrepant. The numbers should be lower than 1.5.

BMWNA has been contacted, but I will have to wait until after Xmas. I've already gotten the "It's past the 6yr window". However, as this defect is milage dependent, time doesn't seem to be a valid argument. I will keep you in the loop.

uberhahn

[Jr ///M5]

Sorry to hear that Uber, a friend of mine with a 740il just went through the same thing. His leak down was much worse, showing a loss of almost 25% in all cylinders. One day his car just failed to start and he called me. After pulling the plugs and not being able to identify the electrode because they were just clumps, I told him the next best thing to do is find a good motor and use our local independent, Kauth & Myer to do the install. He found a used 4.4 engine for $1800 and paid the indy $2600 to do the swap. They also went through the donor engine and replaced certain gaskets that would cost dearly once the engine was installed. They did a leakdown on the donor engine before installation and it showed 3%. I believe BMW condemmed engines with more than 5%. After it was all said and done, they had the car about a week for the swap, he couldn't believe all the performance he had been missing, said it was a different car. Of course the extra .4 litre helped some...
Good luck with your quest with BMW, meanwhile, start looking around for a motor and a very good reputable indy to do the install.

Jr

[Johntee540]

Uber - I was hoping upon hope it was going to be a vacuum leak. 80% some odd are. ( my statistics are not scientific but used for effect and hyperbole) Good luck with BMWNA. We are here for you if you want an ear to listen to your rants as you embark on this journey. -JT

[632 Regal]

This is the very first time I saw anyone with documented evidence that their Nikasil was shot. Heard of it a few times but never withessed any regulars to have any problems. I am still not sure cause I know you can take a brand new running engine, flood it out with fuel and it will be like an open hole with any pressure in the cylinders. Are they trying to sell you an engine? Mann... replacement is the next best option for you and I think with enough hammering BMWNA might give in because of the mileage issue. I still cant see the engine being that bad if it ran this many years...there would have been obvious running issues prior to this. Im just in denial...best of luck to you!

[tim s]

5 months after i purchased my 95 540i/a i had to replace the tranny with a rebuild from kirt koeller. well worth the $2500.00+$600.00 for installation & misc parts from my local shop. now i am dealing with the dreaded play in the steering wheel.
tim s.

[DueyT]

Hmmmm... :( something's fishy here! I'm with Jeff, either in denial or yet to be convinced... Did the shop use one of these to perform the leakdown test?
http://buy1.snapon.com/products/diagnostics/eepv309a.asp?partno=eepv309a&dir=catalog

http://www.snapondiag.com/new__images/compression-gauge/cylinder-leakage-gauge.jpg

I see one of the BMW DIS diagnostic reports and some numbers written on the top of the sheet. The fact that the tests are "at idle conditions, no load" etc... leads me to believe that the guys may have conducted what BMW "thinks" of as a lead down test (using their own fantastical diagnostics machines) but what is not understood by the industry as a "good ole Leak Down" test as described here: http://www.goodson.com/instr/LDT-50.pdf


I'd see what BMW has to offer then, if it looks like you'll be into it for $$$, you might want to spend the extra $150 bucks for a "real" leak down test by an independant mechanic you trust (such a fellow would have no problem showing you what he's doing, including explaining the guages for a cylinder or two...mine did!).

2 more ¢

p.s. I hope that Jeff and my denial is well founded and you were just getting a fancy presentation from the boys in order to let them practice replacing a short block...

Cheers,
Duey

[winfred]

several months ago i busted our dealer on a falty diagnoses of a dead nic block with their wonder machine, it looks at burn time to tell condition of a given cylinder and if it looks off it tells the mechanic to tear down the motor and inspect for dammage, i almost pissed myself laughing when i first read this, the m60 injection system is easyly pissed off and it overadjusts the mixture from one bank to the other, which ****s up the running even more. that said if mother bimmer wants to give you a shortblock let em, you may want to spring for a few other things to be replaced while their at it as preventitive mantance



I see one of the BMW DIS diagnostic reports and some numbers written on the top of the sheet. The fact that the tests are "at idle conditions, no load" etc... leads me to believe that the guys may have conducted what BMW "thinks" of as a lead down test (using their own fantastical diagnostics machines)

[DueyT]

...my thoughts exactly, Winfred!

[Derek A.]

Had an episode with our local dealer. Customer takes his m50 e36 into the shop after he floods it. Classic M50 syndrome in the cold weather. Start the car - shut it off in 20 seconds and the plugs are soaked and it won't re-fire. Dealer tells him you can't flood a BMW. Cranks it some more and the fuel washes the oil out of the rings and it sounds like the motor has no compression. Dealer tells this guy he needs an engine and a tech at the dealer offers to buy the car off the customer. He tows it to our shop. We pull plugs, blow out the cylinders, put some oil in them, new plugs and the motor fires right up. I am always leary of dealers when it comes to older cars and engine problems.

[uberhahn]

I only posted one section of the test (short w/o load). Others were: short w/load, long w/load, and long w/o load. In addition, a pressure distribution test was run.

However, I don't know if they used the "old" method for leakdown. If they believe their methods (and if BMWNA does) I'll see what I can get.

I have been in contact with an indy shop near me, and if BMWNA doesn't come through, I'll go the other route.

Question:

given the leakdown numbers, how long can a Nik block be run until it fails to start?

-uberhahn

[632 Regal]

Until it doesn't start is the only answer here. If the cylinders are "really" failing it will be running very rough with those numbers.

What happens to make things simple is that the coating at the top of the cylinder kinda flakes away causing leak at TDC and virtually no change as the piston goes farther down the bore.

How does the car run/idle right now? Does it idle like it is going to stall constantly? Are there check engine lights on?

You can try to disconnect the battery for an hour or so and restart it, let it idle for about 5 minutes and see if the Nikasil issue goes away, if in fact it idles real bad and you have engine lights on.

[George M]

Before I would do anything...if you don't have the capability, take it to an independent for a second opinion when changing out the motor is at stake...you have too much to lose....particularly if no joy from BMW NA which will probably be quite a battle since you are past the 6 year window as you say.
Good Luck,
George

[Bill R.]

burn time analysis like winfred says and they also do cylinder balance by shorting the injector to each cylinder while testing and measuring the rpm drop on each one , this is all part of the automated dis test... if the results of that test show enough variation then the dis test tells you to do a leakdown test which is the done by the mechanic with a leakdown tester using the leakdown testers that bmw specified that all the dealers use. The tool specified is in the tis as well as the dis procedure and the leakdown test instructions also. A number of potential buyers have hesitated to have bmw do the full test because the leakdown test is about 200 more in cost over the electronic dis test... but if it fails the dis test procedure the instructions right on the printout tell you to do a leakdown and if it exceeds 15% on any cylinder it fails the leakdown. Even the local dealers here will be glad to do that test if the customer is willing to pay for it. When the engines were still covered by warranty the dealers were hesitant to do the leakdown unless the customer was insistent and willing to pay for the test back then they primarily did the dis test and if it failed badly then they did the leakdown.







several months ago i busted our dealer on a falty diagnoses of a dead nic block with their wonder machine, it looks at burn time to tell condition of a given cylinder and if it looks off it tells the mechanic to tear down the motor and inspect for dammage, i almost pissed myself laughing when i first read this, the m60 injection system is easyly pissed off and it overadjusts the mixture from one bank to the other, which ****s up the running even more. that said if mother bimmer wants to give you a shortblock let em, you may want to spring for a few other things to be replaced while their at it as preventitive mantance

[DueyT]

Bill, how close would you say the DIS does in evaluation leakdown, compared to the "pull the plugs and hook up the compressor" leak down?

[Bill R.]

mechanic whether or not a leakdown test is needed, they do the leakdown with a regular leakdown tester just like any other shop would... except i've seen a number of independant shops who don't know how to correctly check the leakdown anyway. The dis test was intended as tool to tell the dealer whether the expense of a leakdown test was advised or not...Many customers were willing to pay the cost of a leakdown even after their car passed the dis test because they thought the results on the dis test were close enough to not passing that they were hoping it would fail the leakdown and they would get a freebie motor out of the deal. To correctly do a leakdown test takes some time.






Bill, how close would you say the DIS does in evaluation leakdown, compared to the "pull the plugs and hook up the compressor" leak down?

[winfred]

gas pedel to the floor while cranking is supposed to turn off the fuel system so that you can clear the cylinders on those motors, i've never tried it


Had an episode with our local dealer. Customer takes his m50 e36 into the shop after he floods it. Classic M50 syndrome in the cold weather. Start the car - shut it off in 20 seconds and the plugs are soaked and it won't re-fire. Dealer tells him you can't flood a BMW. Cranks it some more and the fuel washes the oil out of the rings and it sounds like the motor has no compression. Dealer tells this guy he needs an engine and a tech at the dealer offers to buy the car off the customer. He tows it to our shop. We pull plugs, blow out the cylinders, put some oil in them, new plugs and the motor fires right up. I am always leary of dealers when it comes to older cars and engine problems.

[f1restarter]

About 2 weeks ago i purchased a BMW 530i (1995) from the local BMW dealership and it had 95K miles on it. At the time of sale i had no idea nor had ever heard about the Nikasil problem with BMW cars and the Sales person told me theres no problem with the car (which turned out to be true!). After visiting forums like these i found out about the nikasil issue and was pretty upset that BMW never told me about this serious problem and i wrote an email to the BMW USA. I was assured by their customer service that my car does not have the nikasil problem and it was in some cars. I still wanted to do a leakdown test just for my peace of mind and the car passed the test with flying colors. I don't know where you bought the car from but if it was from a bmw dealership then you have a good chance BMW will help you out as i have read about some people getting their engines replaced by BMWNA as late as last year! I also spoke with BMWNA and their customer care dept. was very helpful and said they offer assistance on a case per case basis. I hope this helps and wish you good luck.

[grave77]

I totally agree with you here ... I would think about using treatment oil and run the test again. if any enhancements occurred then unfortunately the engine is going down:(

[chuck540owner]

It is interesting that this thread appeared at the same time that I was conducting my own test.
I have a 95 540I nikasil v8 engine with 90k on it. It has been running well but idles a bit rough. No hard starting or stalling.
I preformed a leak down test and these are the results.
The percent of leakage was 18 to 30% with most cylinders around 22-24% and only one was 30%.
My guage says this is low ( low being 0 to 40% ) but I suspect that 30% is actually quite high.
After reading some of the other posts I will contact BMW and see if I can get them to fix this.
Chuck

[f1restarter]

According to BMW, if the leak is 15% or more then the engine needs to be replaced.

[DueyT]

Uberhahn, haven't heard the latest, but if you're motor really is shot, you can get another from Bav Motor Exchange for less than $2000, here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&item=7944783426&category=33615).

Cheers,
Duey

[wmann]

1995 540i/6sp w/ 66k miles....

The leak down test.

Cylinder#1: 6%
Cylinder#2: 5%
Cylinder#3: 6%
Cylinder#4: 7%
Cylinder#5: 7%
Cylinder#6: 8%
Cylinder#7: 5%
Cylinder#8: 7%


How do these numbers look in regards to future problems??

Thanks! Bill Mann




Leakdown results in. '94 530i, 5-speed. 91K miles.

Cyl 1 - 15%
Cyl 2 - 14%
Cyl 3 - 19%
Cyl 4 - 6%
Cyl 5 - 10%
Cyl 6 - 22%
Cyl 7 - 11%
Cyl 8 - 7%

The test was done twice, with the same results.
Two files attached. One is an idle quality test with no load, showing Cyl 1, 3, 6 as discrepant. The numbers should be lower than 1.5.

BMWNA has been contacted, but I will have to wait until after Xmas. I've already gotten the "It's past the 6yr window". However, as this defect is milage dependent, time doesn't seem to be a valid argument. I will keep you in the loop.

uberhahn

[George M]

Bill...nos. look great...hard to ask for better from your low miles 540i. More importantly, have to give you credit for such a distinguished last name.
Welcome to the board.
:D
George Mann a.k.a. George M

[granit_silber]

I don't have a nic block (m50), but I've noticed that it idles kinda rough alomost like it going to stall (but it doesn't). Could you guys explain to a newbie was this "leakdown test" is and what it measures?
Is this a genetic problem for my block too?
-ashley

ps you guys have made me nervous.


Leakdown results in. '94 530i, 5-speed. 91K miles.

Cyl 1 - 15%
Cyl 2 - 14%
Cyl 3 - 19%
Cyl 4 - 6%
Cyl 5 - 10%
Cyl 6 - 22%
Cyl 7 - 11%
Cyl 8 - 7%

The test was done twice, with the same results.
Two files attached. One is an idle quality test with no load, showing Cyl 1, 3, 6 as discrepant. The numbers should be lower than 1.5.

BMWNA has been contacted, but I will have to wait until after Xmas. I've already gotten the "It's past the 6yr window". However, as this defect is milage dependent, time doesn't seem to be a valid argument. I will keep you in the loop.

uberhahn

[Bill R.]

a leakdown test is you rotate the crankshaft on the cylinder you're going to test until the piston is at the very top of its stroke (tdc) top dead center.. then when the piston is at the very top both the intake and exhaust valves are closed so the cylinder is sealed as tight as its going to get.
Then you remove the sparkplug for that cylinder and the leakdown tester screws into place in the plug hole. This tester consists of guages and orifice and a fitting where you can attach compressed air . So with your shop air compressor attached to the leakdown tester you set the air pressure at a continous 100psi (the setting that most leakdown testers use).. the orifice on the leakdown tester allows the air to pass through into the cylinder at a certain rate... there are two gauges on the tester, one is the regulated shop air pressure that you set at 100psi and the other is the leakdown percentage
With 100psi of air flowing through this orifice into the cylinder, the valves are closed so the only leakage out of the cylinder is around the rings on the pistons themselves and through any leaky valves... If you have scored up cylinder walls or bad rings then more air will escape past them which shows up on the leakdown percentage indicator... Its simply a test of how airtight the cylinder is with the valves closed and the piston at the top...










I don't have a nic block (m50), but I've noticed that it idles kinda rough alomost like it going to stall (but it doesn't). Could you guys explain to a newbie was this "leakdown test" is and what it measures?
Is this a genetic problem for my block too?
-ashley

ps you guys have made me nervous.

[granit_silber]

Thanks Bill,

Do ya reckon I should do one of these on my motor? The idle is a little rough, however rough to one is smooth to another. I haven't had any problems and seem to have a huge powerband, especially compared to my '02 Civic that the e34 replaced.

-ashley

[Bill R.]

..
Thanks Bill,l

Do ya reckon I should do one of these on my motor? The idle is a little rough, however rough to one is smooth to another. I haven't had any problems and seem to have a huge powerband, especially compared to my '02 Civic that the e34 replaced.

-ashley

[DueyT]

1995 540i/6sp w/ 66k miles....

The leak down test.

Cylinder#1: 6%
Cylinder#2: 5%
Cylinder#3: 6%
Cylinder#4: 7%
Cylinder#5: 7%
Cylinder#6: 8%
Cylinder#7: 5%
Cylinder#8: 7%


How do these numbers look in regards to future problems??

Thanks! Bill Mann
Bill, as George said, you're looking really good! Mine was 6% in seven cylinders, and one at 7%. I don't forsee any problems for the time that I'll have The Beast...


Cheers and welcome!
Duey

[uberhahn]

the latest,

BMW customer relations, along with the dealer, have been trying to contact the regional service representative. Apparently, this one individual is responsible for making the decision on what BMW will contribute to my cause.

They have been trying to contact this person for the last nine days. I understand that he was on vacation during the holidays. But, isn't there a backup? Does the entire service division stop?

So, I'm on hold. I've been a pest with BMW Customer relations, calling every day trying to get a status update, to the point where they have pledged to elevate my case (don't think this means anything but to quiet me down).

The motor exchange may be the way I'll have to go. If I do, there is no way the car will have work done at the dealer.

Uberhahn

[George M]

only thing I would add to Bill's excellent description is what many don't know and that is what do the percentage values physically represent. Percent is dimensionless and that means numerator and denominator units cancel out...in this case its pressure... psi/psi which is left to a ratio or dimensionless percentage. Simply put the leakdown is the pressure IN over the pressure measured which leaves the rest to be leaking by the piston or head gasket or closed intake and exhaust valve. A simplified example is, if air is pumped into the cylinder at 100 PSI and the tester isn't calibrated in percent leakdown and gauge reads 97 PSI, then the leak down percentage is 3%. A new or healthy engine will experience leakdown up to 8% per cylinder. In Bill Mann's case his engine is in excellent condition. Even an engine with as high as 15% leakdown can still have great driveability though maybe not optimal horsepower output.
Some further info on leakdown.
George

[uberhahn]

bmw, as some of you expected, has come back to my nikasil problem only to say "F#$K You". The response is " Although the problem is a manufacturing defect that is mileage dependent, the engine is out of the "special warranty" period for the defect."

I will get a second opinion before major work begins.

So, questions:

If I upgrade to a 4.0, can I still use the same 5-speed transmission from my 530?
Will I need all of the associated electronics for the 4.0 (I assume yes).

How much should the labor cost for a stock replacement (swap out old 530, drop in new-used), vs cost of (swap out old 530, drop in 540)?

I assume building up a "new" 540 or "new" 530 will be significantly more expensive (by buying new block, pistons...).

Darek, it looks like you'll be getting a call from me anyway.
uberhahn

[DueyT]

Uberhahn, either spend ~ $2000 for the engine at the top of page 3 or get this Alusil beast for $7000!

This 4.4L M62 on E-bay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&item=7945033876&category=33615), may bolt up with your 5-speed...ETK is not clear on this...Winfred, Bill? If it doesn't mate up, then Kurt Kholler may have a Getrag S6S 420G 6-speed for around $2k... either way, 2k, 4k or 9k, you may want to do this. Heaven help me and my engine goes on my I'd either dump an M62 into it or scour the countryside for an S62.....http://www3.sympatico.ca/dnatown/cheesy.gif

http://www.data.bmrparts.com/qimages/A253908_556467_1.jpg

[winfred]

i wonder if they got the aluiminum that clean or just painted it, i ****ing hate when they paint a head when they rebuild it, gotta clean that crap off of the gasket surfaces studs and holes

[George M]

uberhahn....a tough call what to do. The most expedient path is simply to sell the car and buy a car with a good motor. A bit of an ethical stumbling block as to whether you disclose your results to the buying party however if you just bought the car and this issue was not disclosed to you...or perhaps you have owned the car for a while and/or you knowingly bought it with a Nikasil block. In any event you won't recoup your investment with any engine you buy...finding a used low mileage good block would be your best recourse if you decide to keep the car but still cheaper...likely a lot cheaper and MUCH easier to swap cars for a cost hit. Most importantly much less of a headache by swapping cars as you don't have to contend with time, logistics...whether its done right...you get a good engine etc...including the sorting out process. And Winfred...lol...you think the above engine can look like that by cleaning or polishing?...its painted man....covering a multitude of sins as we all know a painted engine always runs right ;-)
George

[Elekta]

Was there any insurance you could get relief from?

American Express?
Paypal?

Did you sign a document/bill of sale accepting the car as is where is? Have you already transferred title/paid the sales tax on the car?

You might find some recourse if your situation applies to any of the above.

Is there anyway to get the seller to give you your money back?

Then there's this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7944742975&rd=1)
http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/1d/93/ec_3.JPG

Or this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7944021656&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

[DueyT]

530i...I have to say about the engine in your second link...I am HIGHLY sceptical of an engine claimed to have leakdown of between 1 to 3 %, much less one with 50k on it. Perhaps the mechanic sprayed refrigerated gear oil into each cylinder just before testing them...something smells fishy in tuna town!

Duey

[632 Regal]

So uberhahn, the car doesnt run/start?

[Beemr750]

A few questions on this procedure.
Now it was said the piston has to be at top dead center.In order to hold it up they would have to lock the crankshaft in place.Is there a special tool or gadged they use to keep it from turning while the cylinder gets compressed, especially with A/T?

Another question: Is'nt there a time factor involved? Lets say a minute for 100 psi to hold and tell how much has leaked?

[George M]

nope on both fronts. Perhaps introducing 100 psi to a single cylinder that was hermetically sealed...lol...no such thing of course...would induce the crank to turn but energy is expended through leak-by at well under typ. compression 100/14.7 is much less than standard compression of opposing cylinder i.e. 9:1 or so in addition to static internal friction of the engine which will keep the crank in place.

Second question/answer...no time period involved per se albeit no utility in languishing...pretty much a steady state leak path by the piston wall(s). The percent can be calculated in terms of wear/X-sectional area if you know the flowrate at 100 psi and the pressure drop which makes up the percentage leak. Not rocket science by any means...pressure is proportional to volume, i.e. ideal gas law.
HTH,
George

[Elekta]

530i...I have to say about the engine in your second link...I am HIGHLY sceptical of an engine claimed to have leakdown of between 1 to 3 %, much less one with 50k on it. Perhaps the mechanic sprayed refrigerated gear oil into each cylinder just before testing them...something smells fishy in tuna town!

Duey

Those were pretty much my results when I tested, then bought mine at 58k.

It was just an ebay link, so FWIW YMMV
geoffrey

[DueyT]

Roger...I've just never seen 1-3% leakdown numbers... Ack the caveat emptor on the E-bay thing. :)

Cheers,
Duey