View Full Version : conceptual thread- poor man's supercharger?
My other hobby is remote control aircraft. Over the past few years, the use of brushless motor technology has really taken over. For example, I have a 5oz brushless motor operating on 12v and 25A that puts out 5lbs+ of thrust at 80% efficiency (i.e.: watts in/watts out). It does this on a 10in prop.
I know others who are using ducted fans with scale jet aircraft that are flying at 10 lbs. Look at this link and scroll to the bottom of the page to get an idea of what I'm talking about- http://www.hobby-lobby.com/ductfan.htm
That's alot of thrust. 12-15 lbs of deadlifting capacity with the pitchspeed (how fast the air behind the prop is being pushed) at 80mph+
Now I know what you're thinking- you're not going to get 12 lb's of boost out of an electric motor.- true But you're not going to have a "turbulator" either.
So what if you replaced the air flow boot from the MAF to the Air Filter with a custom ducted fan. Like a straight tube with a K&N cone filter on the end, and a fan in that tube, with a pinch point(a narrowing section) in front of the MAF connection so you would develop some pressure. Let's not worry about where you're going to get the current from yet. You'd have something wouldn't you?
632 Regal
10-20-2004, 12:53 PM
but wouldnt you have the same problems as the turbo boys? Fuel curve customization and timing curves and all the motronic mess?
I don't know. We're only talking about a couple pounds of pressure. Enough to see gains, but probably not enough to create a bunch of back pressure and within the tolerances of the stock MAF sensor. I suppose it would be similar to running a large hood scoop. But, I don't know.
632 Regal
10-20-2004, 01:52 PM
I would try it if it was only a couple lbs of boost, it also would only be applied at full throttle so that may be a whole different deal. Hood scoops do add power but back then we would just rejet the carb and timing, this is computer controled.
This might be sweet!
50 bux and 50 HP just pop on...hmm
AllanS
10-20-2004, 02:01 PM
How much air does it move? cfm? Thomas Knight is doing something similar to this, but with rootes type superchargers. It's powered by large capacitors, which recharge while you're off throttle. From what I've read, it seems to work well, but for the money I'd rather let the exhaust do the work.
For comparison, a Garrett T25 (.60/.62) puts out 405 cfm. An s trim to4b compressor on a t3 turbine housing puts out 650.
Yeah, actually I was thinking of just powering it directly off the alternator, with a shunt switch into the cabin. Not something I'd drive around with all the time, but it might be fun for doing a 1/4 mi time, or shaming a mustang etc.
How much air does it move? cfm? Thomas Knight is doing something similar to this, but with rootes type superchargers. It's powered by large capacitors, which recharge while you're off throttle. From what I've read, it seems to work well, but for the money I'd rather let the exhaust do the work.
For comparison, a Garrett T25 (.60/.62) puts out 405 cfm. An s trim to4b compressor on a t3 turbine housing puts out 650.
I'm only guessing here, but maybe 150-250. My ME-109 at wide open throttle is comparable to a good size leaf blower, and it's not even ducted.
andyman32
10-20-2004, 03:25 PM
Wow, really cool concept tim. Even if you just pick up 20 or 30 horses, that's the cheapest 30 horses you'll get anywhere on the car.
Would the computer automatically adjust the air/fuel mixture to compensate for the increased airflow? Or would you need a custom-programmed chip?
AllanS
10-20-2004, 04:06 PM
Hey Tim, I've got a question for ya... when my dad died, about 16 years ago, he left me these 2 model planes (one of which looks just like your 109, but brown with a blue bottom)... they're balsa wood frames, with paper over it, and then painted. Well, the paper is all brittle and falling apart, and if you so much as touch it your finger will go through... Do you know anything about that type of model, and maybe what it would take to redo it? Like, what kind of paper (if at all) should be used, paint, etc.? Could an actual engine and controls be added to it?
AllanS
10-20-2004, 04:14 PM
Let's say for arguments sake that these things put out 300 cfm (impossible, of course).
That's comparable to a t25- a very small turbo. If you put one on even a 525i, it would spool up fast, and run out of juice, fast.
I could see this on a motorcycle or some other small displacement engine, MAYBE, but not on a 4l v8!
Also, it wouldn't be worth the money spent on tuning, if the reason for buying one is their cheap price.
Robin-535im
10-20-2004, 04:34 PM
in case it broke so you wouldn't send carbon fiber or wood into your pistons...
I'm glad to see your post, as I've had a similar idea in mind for a while now. I think the stock motronic would adjust just fine, as long as you were consistent about running it at the same time, all the time. I.e., if you always had it spin up at 1/2 throttle and above, the DME could adjust to the extra airflow at mid throttle and you'd still have an air/fuel of 13 at WOT. You wouldn't want it to only come on at WOT because the DME is open loop at that point, and would not know to add extra fuel. You'd have to run it also at mid throttle to give the DME something to adjust to. Or, you could get a custom chip burnt, but that would require a wide band O2 sensor and multiple iterations to get it right.
I thought of putting one of those ducted fans at the inlet to the air box and just running it full speed all the time, or having a branched intake where one branch was the stock intake from behind the lights, and another was a duct with a fan in it that was also behind some grille area so it had access to cold air. For a $70 fan assembly, it's worth buying it and fooling around with some ducting on the weekend. Heck... why not buy 6 or 8 smaller fans and just hook them up right at each intake port? Hook a rheostat to the throttle and you could make air flow change with the throttle... You could call it "The Octocharger"... just hope it never broke and got sucked into the piston!
Definitely keep us posted if you decide to tinker.
- Robin
[QUOTE=AllanS]Hey Tim, I've got a question for ya... QUOTE]
Yeah, you could recover them no problem. Were they R/C in the first place? If so, that'll make it alot easier. I have to warn you though, flying r/c airplanes is a very steep learning curve, and if you try to start on a wwII warbird, you are guaranteed to turn dad's old models into matchsticks in very short order.
Here are the two best links in the hobby, and feel free to ask me more questions if you want.
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/
and
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php?topic=ezone
Let's say for arguments sake that these things put out 300 cfm (impossible, of course).
Well, honestly, 300cfm is not impossible but your point is well taken. I think the best application would be a part of a cold air intake, and at a boost level where you would not have to make changes to the MAF or fuel map. I bet Mark D'Sylva would know whether it would be realistic. But I'm not going for 100 horses either. As Robin said, if you ran it all the time, you would just have a slightly pressurized cold air intake. You're not going to run a 10sec 1/4mi, but I don't think it unrealistic to gain perhaps 20 or 30 HP. Other than an EAT chip there's nothing even remotely close in terms of HP per $, even if the gains aren't what a supercharger or turbocharger would produce.
Just dreaming-
Rigmaster
10-20-2004, 05:54 PM
Crap, does anyone else remember how this same sort of thing created the UUC Digest and the demise of the "original" BMW-Digest run by Richard Welty?? This was a couple of years ago (well, several years ago.....). Some guy named Mark Kibort started posting on the board about his "electric supercharger", claiming all sorts of unreal performance gains. He insisted that he gained quite a few HP, but refused to post before and after dyno results. It got totally out of hand until a bunch of folks split off into the UUC digest (guaranteed "Kibort-free")...
Anyway, I'm not trying to discourage your idea, or this discussion (though I do think that "20-30 hp" NET gain is IMPOSSIBLE with ANY electric device).....
Just thought it was interesting how these things pop up again and again....
Bret
632 Regal
10-20-2004, 06:36 PM
after all it was an idea. Do you have any links to the deal you were referring to? It is an interesting concept and Im real interested in what your referring to.
Crap, does anyone else remember how this same sort of thing...
Bret
Well, I'm not selling anything.
And, given unlimited funds I could easily produce a 10psi electric supercharger. 10 psi boost with appropriate modifications on an m60 would be solidly in the mid 400's HP, until stuff started melting.
At this point this thread is about speculation. These brushless motors I'm talking about are very new- few people outside of the model aviation and industrial engineering fields are aware of them. We're talking about a quantum leap over dc brushed motors. I know guys that are flying these things at 25-30 volts and 100 Amps. That's arc welding type wattage. An they're running them off lithium polymer batteries that can handle that amperage for 10-15 minutes. So there's new stuff to look at even if the concept is old.
The most interesting question on this thread that has come up so far, is that if you pressurized the intake, using the stock MAF and fuel map, would you acheive a performance gain? Good question. Worthy of experimentation on a dyno, I think.
632 Regal
10-20-2004, 07:18 PM
Well, I'm not selling anything.
And, given unlimited funds I could easily produce a 10psi electric supercharger. 10 psi boost with appropriate modifications on an m60 would be solidly in the mid 400's HP, until stuff started melting.
At this point this thread is about speculation. These brushless motors I'm talking about are very new- few people outside of the model aviation and industrial engineering fields are aware of them. We're talking about a quantum leap over dc brushed motors. I know guys that are flying these things at 25-30 volts and 100 Amps. That's arc welding type wattage. An they're running them off lithium polymer batteries that can handle that amperage for 10-15 minutes. So there's new stuff to look at even if the concept is old.
The most interesting question on this thread that has come up so far, is that if you pressurized the intake, using the stock MAF and fuel map, would you acheive a performance gain? Good question. Worthy of experimentation on a dyno, I think.
andyman32
10-20-2004, 07:24 PM
Yeah, hell, for $50, it's almost worth the $$ just to tinker and play...
Who's willing to be the guinea pig? :p
what about hooking up a low power electric leaf blower to the inlet side of the air filter while the car was on a dyno? Couldn't hurt much. Just as a proof of concept.
Brian C.
10-20-2004, 07:41 PM
Sorta like this............
http://www.truckaddons.com/images02/Tornado/TornadoAir_opt.jpg
......OK, OK.....old joke!
Brian C.
:p
winfred
10-20-2004, 07:58 PM
i got out of nitro rc cars as brushless was showing up, it'd be neat to see what one could do on the ground with that kind of power, we have a 1200' vellodrome in town to play on and i got my .21 powered 1/8 scale 4wd a little past 80 mph and my .12 powered 1/10 4wd past 65 mph. i just got burned out and needed a break, me and the guy i raced with were filling a pickup truck with stuff just to go play, but i am kinda getting the itch to get everything on the road again, one of the last times we played it was at night and in the dead of winter and about as cold as it gets here (everything was getting frost on it including the cars, but boy were they making power in the cold) we even built a radar trap suspended over the track to check the speeds from a x-band police unit found on ebay after getting discusted with the "sports radar" units piss poor performance
At this point this thread is about speculation. These brushless motors I'm talking about are very new- few people outside of the model aviation and industrial engineering fields are aware of them. We're talking about a quantum leap over dc brushed motors. I know guys that are flying these things at 25-30 volts and 100 Amps. That's arc welding type wattage. An they're running them off lithium polymer batteries that can handle that amperage for 10-15 minutes. So there's new stuff to look at even if the concept is old
this one (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/actro-40.htm) weighs about a pound and puts out 2 1/2 HP! Can you freaking imagine? Put a tall gear on that and you'll need a spotter with binoculars.
Seriously, I don't do much with cars, but I've heard that Novak is the one putting out the brushless stuff there. I could rig one for you though, although for that many amps there wouldn't be any reverse or anything and you'd go through tires faster than a riced out wrx.
The stuff that's coming out of the military and nasa into the model aviation field is mindblowing. We have a guy down here (retired ex-nasa: we get alot of those at our club) who's set up a full fly by wire system on a 8 lb. plane. He has a video downlink from the plane to a laptop. It has 3 axis gyro, gps, and altimeter and he flies it without looking up at the plane at all. He uses it for arial photography and gets good money to take shots of construction sites and such, where the photo's are indexed to specific gps waypoints. Basically, it's a little brother to a full blown military UAV.
winfred
10-20-2004, 09:09 PM
my pico R1 .21 puts out about 2.7 hp (according to paris pico) but nothing even close to the torque of that electric, avable gearing was what was limiting us on speed, brian and i were planning a custom 2nd gear set for his neo 1/8 scale shooting for 100 mph but we would need a better track for a full power run, the soup bowl we run in is almost as bumpy as the roads are, the sparks from the titainum chassie's at night are cool when downforce eats up suspension
this one (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/actro-40.htm) weighs about a pound and puts out 2 1/2 HP! Can you freaking imagine? Put a tall gear on that and you'll need a spotter with binoculars.
netmgr
10-20-2004, 09:10 PM
the fans available at the moment require more like 80 amps not 25, can only run for seconds at a time, due to current consumption and produce 1-2 hp increase....hardly worth my time and money
infact some say it looses horsepower, have a look
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_projects/el_blower/
You will not increase peak HP or torque with an electric supercharger. Peak HP comes at or near redline, when your engine is consuming so much air that it would take a HUGE amount of power to compress it significantly.
Rigmaster
10-20-2004, 10:46 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to piss on anything- just wondering if there were any "oldtimers" around here who remembered this.
Anyway, here's Mr. Kibort's "eRam" electric supercharger- looks like he's got some dyno charts, a money back guarantee, and some new claims. I am not an electrical expert, but this seems like it's sort of black magic........
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/
Bret.
DanDombrowski
10-21-2004, 11:13 AM
Nothing like this, right?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7929401244&category=33741
Nothing like this, right?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7929401244&category=33741
Actually, something like that if its what it looks like. At least if that doesn't really do anything, my idea won't do anything either. My idea is basically that, plus using a brushless motor and an aviation quality impeller.
Thanks for the heads up Dan.
Anyway, here's Mr. Kibort's "eRam" electric supercharger...
Bret.
This also looks valid. Interesting that he has a setup that mounts it after the MAF, before the intake. It seems that would really give you some manifold pressure, without blasting the airflow past the MAF, which seems like a recipe for mixture problems.
Thanks for the link
Robin-535im
10-21-2004, 12:08 PM
:)
Not to mention "they are" vs. "there"
But hey, who can deny AWESOME SICK INSANE POWER!
winfred
10-21-2004, 12:14 PM
Nothing like this, right?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7929401244&category=33741
TC535i
10-21-2004, 12:23 PM
Lots of people have thought about doing this with a bilge pump...
andyman32
10-21-2004, 12:40 PM
:)
Not to mention "they are" vs. "there"
But hey, who can deny AWESOME SICK INSANE POWER!
Ahh... spellun. Shits hard. I agree with Robin ;)
With this Electronic turbo you will force OVER HUNDREDS OF CUBIC FEET OF AIR IN YOR ENGINE!!!
Huh. Looking for substantiation. Show me a dyno chart for a big-block 8 and I'll be happy. Methinks this is more for a Honda V4 or something.
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