OT; Simple sloution to gas costs and answer to recent sky is falling thread

[Ross]

Use less.
No need for hybrids and the hazardous waste they contain, no need for ethanol(as it's currently produced anyway)and it's environmental impact either. Hydrogen, where will that come from?
If we wouldn't expect to crash cars and walk away, have an entire entertainment center and living room along with us our vehicles would weigh FAR less.
Simple physics dicatate that if you accelerate a large mass over and over it takes more energy than a smaller one.
A V-8 powered barge can get nearly the economy of a featherweight while cruising. But since populations tend to be concentrated most driving is stop and go on the commute.
Fuel costs are higher than ever but demand has yet to subside(giant SUVs still trundling a single occupant to Starbucks in my neighborhood) so they will continue to rise. All the while lining the pockets of our enemies mind you.
Bitch and moan all you want, dig a bunker and fill it with food, water and weapons if you think it will help.
We need to stop consuming and wasting, period. Our world tends to learn the hard way though.

[repenttokyo]

good advice. for example, i now walk to the corner mail box instead of driving.

[525i winter driver]

words to live by - but i think this is going to hit us too fast for that to be a solution in itself (not that i have any better ideas).
a friend of mine was saying just the other day that those who have the means to grow their own (food, that is :D ) are going to come out ahead...
think it's bad now, wait until water gets expensive!

(sounds very cynical so i should say overall i'm confident we will come up with enough solutions to our problems to do ok - we just got lazy that's all)

[repenttokyo]

words to live by - but i think this is going to hit us too fast for that to be a solution in itself (not that i have any better ideas).
a friend of mine was saying just the other day that those who have the means to grow their own (food, that is :D ) are going to come out ahead...
think it's bad now, wait until water gets expensive!

(sounds very cynical so i should say overall i'm confident we will come up with enough solutions to our problems to do ok - we just got lazy that's all)


think of how lucky we are to have all of that hydro and water!

[525i winter driver]

think of how lucky we are to have all of that hydro and water!
what do you mean, WE?? aren't you moving?:p

[SnakeyesTx]

The idea of "find alternative ways of getting things done" like walking to your mailbox and carpooling is still a temporary relaxant to a permanent problem. More people are buying cars than old people are losing their licenses. We can all drive a little less sure (well, I can't, I only drive to work and back anyway), but in a few days, think of ALL those high school graduates getting their graduation gift of a new car.

Hydrogen comes from electrolosis of water which breaks it down to its basic elements. The only real problem here is that no one has figured out how to do this in massive quantities to be economical for the process. Mark my words, when someone out there in the world figures this out, Opec will die.

My biggest issue is why here in the US, we're so reluctant to accept a flurry of small displacement diesels. They easily get twice the milage as gasoline so in all honesty the cost-per-mile is still cheaper than gasoline even though the cost per gallon is more expensive. You'll still end up filling less often than the guy with the petrol engine. It's also pretty sad that diesel is the more efficient fuel to burn, the easier of the fuels to refine, and yet consumers are punished at the pump for this. Completely asinine.

[repenttokyo]

what do you mean, WE?? aren't you moving?:p


lol very true - but the hydro and water is what will make me come back in 3 years!!

oh and the clean air too :p

[Ross]

Snake, the prob with diesel is emissions. I won't go into emissons caused by manufacturing hybrids, or ethanol, the current saviors according to some greenies and all farmers. suffice it to say tailpipe emissions are too high.
Modern gas engines burn pretty damn clean, if employed in displacements comparable to the rest of the world our problems would be halved. They are so large because of the amount of work expected from them, mostly for wasteful reasons.

[SnakeyesTx]

The forum will be full of posts about "hydrogen conversion group buy" threads when I figure out how to make it more cost-effective, thus becoming the most powerful man on planet earth MUAHAHAHAA :D

[pundit]

Well of course I agree 100% with your 'simple' solution.

But without taking the big picture into account it is a 'simplistic' solution.

Just whether or not you drive your own car from point 'A' to point 'B' is not nearly the end of the equation.

To reduce energy consumption requires all that I already mentioned and much more.

Everything we purchase from a can of beans to a plasma TV requires oil.

So how about some beans for dinner?

A can of beans requires cultivated land using diesel fuelled machinery, the fertiliser and pesticides (also generated from fossil fuels also need to be manufactured and transported), then more diesel fuelled machinery to harvest the beans and transport the beans to the factory.
The can itself requires mining of the raw materials, transportation of the raw materials, crushing, separation, smelting and fabrication.
The cans, like the beans, are then transported to the cannery.
The labels require petro-chemicals for the ink and forests for the paper label with all those associate energy inputs.
Then beans are shipped from the cannery to the distribution depots and then onto the supermarkets.
The night-fill supermarket employees then drive to the supermarket to unpack the cans of beans and place them on the shelves, then drive home again.
Then you get in your SUV and drive down to the supermarket to buy the can of beans drive home and use more energy to heat them up.
You then throw the empty can in the trash which is collected by the garbage truck and taken to the landfill site where a bulldozer grinds it into the ground.

Pretty efficient use of energy for one can of beans don't you reckon?

Simple solution?... Grow you own beans at home and, yes, far less energy will be used.

Oh and tell the Chinese to stop buying cars at the rate of 15,000 per week!

In reality, consumption is the key... we consume far too much of everything!

And two more daily news items...

Food price 'catastrophe' feared on eve of summit (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/03/2263095.htm)

Scientist questions solar rebate change (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/03/2263076.htm)

[pundit]

The idea of "find alternative ways of getting things done" like walking to your mailbox and carpooling is still a temporary relaxant to a permanent problem. More people are buying cars than old people are losing their licenses. We can all drive a little less sure (well, I can't, I only drive to work and back anyway), but in a few days, think of ALL those high school graduates getting their graduation gift of a new car.

Hydrogen comes from electrolosis of water which breaks it down to its basic elements. The only real problem here is that no one has figured out how to do this in massive quantities to be economical for the process. Mark my words, when someone out there in the world figures this out, Opec will die.

My biggest issue is why here in the US, we're so reluctant to accept a flurry of small displacement diesels. They easily get twice the milage as gasoline so in all honesty the cost-per-mile is still cheaper than gasoline even though the cost per gallon is more expensive. You'll still end up filling less often than the guy with the petrol engine. It's also pretty sad that diesel is the more efficient fuel to burn, the easier of the fuels to refine, and yet consumers are punished at the pump for this. Completely asinine.
The catch is with increasing fuel prices that even if something costs half as much to run now the prices will have doubled again within 2 - 3 years.
So you will quickly be back to where you are now.
Remember, this new more efficient fossil fuel burning vehicle still has to be manufactured (with all the associated energy costs) and you still have to find the money to purchase it.

There has been some news reports claiming the the reason for the excessive price hikes in diesel is the result of China stockpiling it in the lead up to the Olympics.
Another reason is diesel is more critical to transport than gasoline and any perceived shortages of say food can easliy be tied to transport which can artificially increase the price of diesel.

Even hybrids are not environmentally friendly, especially if people only keep them for a couple of years and then buy something new.
Then how much will someone pay you for your old 'gas guzzler'?... ZIP!!
Leave it in the street and some homeless person will sleep in it!

[pundit]

good advice. for example, i now walk to the corner mail box instead of driving.
I either walk (20 mins) or ride my bike (7 mins) to town.

[pundit]

... a friend of mine was saying just the other day that those who have the means to grow their own (food, that is :D ) are going to come out ahead...
think it's bad now, wait until water gets expensive!...
We are in the middle of a ten year drought here in Australia.
Water is about to become very expensive here very soon.
Water restrictions have been in force here for some time and in some areas people are not allowed to even water their own vegetable gardens!! - Now that is STUPID!
If things get much worse the government ain't going to let me water mine either, so I'm catching and storing my own water!
I have just purchased two 9000 litre water tanks... so I can water my vege garden.
BTW - I had to wait 7 months for the tanks from order to delivery.
That should indicate how critical things are becoming.
And they are made from polyethelene (which requires oil) and were transported 200 kms by truck... more oil!
If people wait too long until things become critical then supply will not be able to keep up with demand... even for things like water tanks.
These tanks cost me $3,800 for the two of them.

Now give the average consumer $3,800 and the choice of buying water tanks or the latest 100 inch plasma TV.
What's he more likely to come home with?
Not the water tanks, I can assure you.
What would he wished he'd bought in ten years time?
Not the plasma TV, I can assure you!

The Murray-Darling River basin is called the food bowl of Australia.
The Murray-Darling Basin produces food for 73 per cent of Australia's population.
Many farmers who have to pay in advance for the water will receive no water allocation this year!
No water will be released into the irrigation channels to supply many farms.
That's right they are required by Government legislation to pay for water yet they will receive NONE!
Imagine having to pay a year in advance for your gas and then going to the gas station to be told there is no gas available for you for the entire year ahead. No refund!

And if there is no decent rain there will be no crops!

At the moment a large pipeline (50 miles long) is being built to send water from Goulburn River to Sugarloaf Reservoir, one of the dams that supplies water to the city of Melbourne.
This means less water will be available for agriculture.
Needless to say there has been a massive outcry (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/03/2263383.htm) from the farming community in the north of the state.
So the city is effectively stealing water from the country.

I live 50 kms (35 miles) from the city of Melbourne.
Why should I be taking water from the northern agricultural regions when I can catch my own?... when it rains of course.

As for the second largest reservoir in the state of Victoria...

"Lake Eildon is the impoundment created by Eildon Weir on the Goulburn River in southern Victoria, Australia. At 3,334,158 ML when full, it contains six times as much water as Sydney Harbour and is the second largest water storage in Victoria... As of May 8, 2007, Lake Eildon had dropped to an all-time low of 5.3% capacity."

Yes that was correct... 5.3%.

A recent picture of our second largest reservoir...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/111203216_81f89433b2.jpg

The town of Goulburn (NSW) actually ran out of water last year.

Your friend is quite right when he says that those who can grow at least a proportion of their own food will be better off than those who can't.
The same applies to water.

At the end of the day, it is food and water that are important... you can't drink gasoline even if you can afford it.

Los Angeles has had it's own water problems... 'The California Water Wars' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars).

The movie 'Chinatown' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown_%28film%29) was loosely based on them.

[pundit]

The true test of how things are will be how much traffic this forum has five years from now.

If gas prices have hit $15 per gallon (or more) how many of us will be still driving around in old gas guzzling BMW's... let alone coming here to talk about them?

I somehow think, by then, more important things will be occupying our minds!

[ScottyWM]

The true test of how things are will be how much traffic this forum has five years from now.

If gas prices have hit $15 per gallon (or more) how many of us will be still driving around in old gas guzzling BMW's... let alone coming here to talk about them?

I somehow think, by then, more important things will be occupying our minds!

Good point. I, for one (and maybe the only one), have put my premium fuel E34 into storage for now. I drive my 21year old 4 cylinder truck and 30 year old 4 cylinder 2 seater - both of which use cheap regular gas. Unfortunately, neither has air conditioning, but that will just make me drive less! Not a permanent solution, I know. But it is one way to save a few bucks...

[Ross]

Pundit, We agree that consumption is key.
Your can of beans scenario would be interesting if it applied to a single can of beans. Most of the steps described are really done in very efficient ways. The all night stores and potential for someone in an Escalade to make a special trip for said can may have some merit.
Where I live the empty can would go into a dedicated poly bin for pick up by a diesel fueled recycling truck where it is sorted, by people who ostensibly drive cars to their work, and lots of machinery powered by something other than magic. All this to eventually be made into another bit of steel for another can of beans.
PACKAGING and "disposables" are among the biggest wasters to contend with. Along with some ideas about recycling.
I'll let you run a similar scenario for bottled water, something that is most inhabitable places falls free from the sky.
Finally, farming on an individual basis is absurd for anything other than a nice fresh salad. Self sufficiency would be short lived in a post epocalyptic scenario, all of one's time would be consumed defending the "farm".

[Ross]

I will have engineered a yoke that will connect to the factory tow hook for being pulled by a team of oxen, their manure being burned in a small onboard electrical generating system to power the old Bimmer's climate control.

[repenttokyo]

Pundit, We agree that consumption is key.
Your can of beans scenario would be interesting if it applied to a single can of beans. Most of the steps described are really done in very efficient ways. The all night stores and potential for someone in an Escalade to make a special trip for said can may have some merit.
Where I live the empty can would go into a dedicated poly bin for pick up by a diesel fueled recycling truck where it is sorted, by people who ostensibly drive cars to their work, and lots of machinery powered by something other than magic. All this to eventually be made into another bit of steel for another can of beans.
PACKAGING and "disposables" are among the biggest wasters to contend with. Along with some ideas about recycling.
I'll let you run a similar scenario for bottled water, something that is most inhabitable places falls free from the sky.
Finally, farming on an individual basis is absurd for anything other than a nice fresh salad. Self sufficiency would be short lived in a post epocalyptic scenario, all of one's time would be consumed defending the "farm".

bottled water is one of the most environmentally damaging concepts that has been marketed to us, particularly if you look at brands like Fiji water, which comes from a country where plant workers don't even have clean water in their taps.

[Ross]

A lot of bottled water is from municipal water supplies, filtered they say.
In Chicago lake Michigan is the source for most areas, it is good tasting and among the best water in our country yet people pay more for the same lake Michigan water in a bottle. F#%^ing laziness is all it is.
Coca Cola is made from "purified water" and blah, blah blah. Dasani, Coke's brand is the water alone and costs more. Go figure that out.

[attack eagle]

Thus why I drink 2 liters of Cokes and mountain dews instead of "bottled water"

Even crazier those health waters (like Vitamin water or what ever it is) are chock full of sugars... WTF?

Here where I live everything relies on fossil fuels.
Water? Pumped from a prehistoric aquifer via electric pumps and desalinated...
Electricity? From Natural gas powered turbines
Food and all other goods? Trucked in by diesel powered semis

IN a post apolyptic scenario, I think this desert area could support around 1000 people on the natural resources... leaving 600,000 to find a new home elsewhere

[pundit]

Pundit, We agree that consumption is key.
Your can of beans scenario would be interesting if it applied to a single can of beans. Most of the steps described are really done in very efficient ways. The all night stores and potential for someone in an Escalade to make a special trip for said can may have some merit.
Where I live the empty can would go into a dedicated poly bin for pick up by a diesel fueled recycling truck where it is sorted, by people who ostensibly drive cars to their work, and lots of machinery powered by something other than magic. All this to eventually be made into another bit of steel for another can of beans.
PACKAGING and "disposables" are among the biggest wasters to contend with. Along with some ideas about recycling.
I'll let you run a similar scenario for bottled water, something that is most inhabitable places falls free from the sky.
Finally, farming on an individual basis is absurd for anything other than a nice fresh salad. Self sufficiency would be short lived in a post epocalyptic scenario, all of one's time would be consumed defending the "farm".
Yes of course the can of beans scenario was a scenario showing some of the processes that most don't ever contemplate.
And I agree that bottled water should be banned, when you consider that those who can afford to buy it don't need it, and along with the packaging and transport costs (water is heavy) it must be win the prize for one of the most environmently stupid products ever marketed.
And a lot of recycling is, as you pointed out, not environmentally friendly.
I wasn't referring to growing you own veges just in relation to an 'apocalyptic' event.
The cost of food here is beginning to skyrocket and along with everything and people are complaining about the cost of food.
Supermarkets are using fuel, and global warming as justification to jack up their prices far more than they should be but the farmers aren't receiving much more for their produce.
So my response is to buy less from the supermarkets.
As for growing your own, many dwarf veges can be grown in pots.
Of course most in the west now is consume highly processed food (if you want to call it that) high is sugar, fat and additives.
So there are health benefits as well, as economic.
The obesity issue is the biggest health issue the western world faces short of an epidemic or nuclear war.
The reality is America is more than half full of obese people (many chronically obese) who put extreme pressure on the health system and we in Australia are not far behind.
When you look at the crap people fill their shopping trolleys with, let alone what is served at the food courts at shopping centers and fast food outlets it's not surprising.
Far more Americans die daily from obesity related diseases than ever have from terrorism yet look at the money the Goverment has spent in the 'War on Terrorism' versus the 'War on Obesity'... no contest!
I fortunately live in a semi-rural area so food co-ops where local farm produce is available operate nearby.
I can ride my bike for five minutes and buy eggs from an Italian farmer who sells them from the side of the road.
These local co-ops require minimum transport, no packaging and sell fresh and unprocessed food at much cheaper prices than the supermarkets.
I realise that for most city dwellers this is not an option, but if you began to do things locally rather than rely on the status quo you can reduce some of your living costs and eat healthier, with all the associated benefits.

[attack eagle]

The true test of how things are will be how much traffic this forum has five years from now.

If gas prices have hit $15 per gallon (or more) how many of us will be still driving around in old gas guzzling BMW's... let alone coming here to talk about them?

I somehow think, by then, more important things will be occupying our minds!

Really? I think my BMW gets good gas mileage... that is why i bought it.
Alternatives were SUB 20mpg SUVs (room needed for car seats) or minivans.

[pundit]

Really? I think my BMW gets good gas mileage... that is why i bought it.
Alternatives were SUB 20mpg SUVs (room needed for car seats) or minivans.
It's all relative... isn't it.
Go to Europe and you'll see plenty of cars that get 40mpg plus.
Something that gets less than 30mpg is considered a guzzler and would be too expensive to run with gas there selling for bewteen $10-$12 a gallon... more than double the cost of the US.
The USA still has amongst the cheapest gas in the world.

[Paul in NZ]

its more basic than that...we use too much,we are wasteful,industry is wasteful...and there are now too many of us....

[attack eagle]

OH i've paid Euro prices for gas before... which is why our Ford Falcon had a CNG conversion after a couple of years in Argentina.

Simple fact is that it cost less ( and is more environmentally friendly) to drive my paid for wagon at 16 city/ 24-28 highway (75 or 55), than it does to buy a new fuel efficient car...

I would use 343 gallons a year at 35 mpg and 600 at 20 mpg average... 257 gallons less per year, 1,028 dollars potentially saved... but not counting more expensive insurance, and the cost of interest on a car loan (money I probably spend on maintenance now) it would take me at least 18 YEARS to break even... much less recoup any money. I doubt these light weight cheap cars would even last that long.

Seriously, How many of those micro cars can take a Fullsize stroller, and two infant size car seats in the back without sticking you on top of the airbag?? How many seat 5 adults? I know the BMW 3 series wagons are already too small for my needs, and the 1 series hatch are teeny tiny.
I know the xB would not take a stroller, and my 30+ mpg turbo Talon wouldn't take an infant seat so it got ditched at a loss to get the Touring.
I sold my 4 cylinder to get the Wagon because I needed the room, and the wife a has a fuel sipping Prizm (28 mpg average... about twice what I get) as a commuter already.
If I was going to buy a 2 place commuter, it'd be a first gen mr2. they get 35 mpg.

[repenttokyo]

It's all relative... isn't it.
Go to Europe and you'll see plenty of cars that get 40mpg plus.
Something that gets less than 30mpg is considered a guzzler and would be too expensive to run with gas there selling for bewteen $10-$12 a gallon... more than double the cost of the US.
The USA still has amongst the cheapest gas in the world.

yes, but in europe they don't have to travel great distances between cities like we do, so they can afford to drive shitbox econo cars in cities and then take the train for long distance. In Canada, the biggest cities are very, very far apart. I find it is difficult to make people understand this fundamental difference between north american and european car culture.

[repenttokyo]

If I was going to buy a 2 place commuter, it'd be a first gen mr2. they get 35 mpg.


or a miata - i've often wondered why these aren't more popular options.

[healtoeit]

yes, but in europe they don't have to travel great distances between cities like we do, so they can afford to drive shitbox econo cars in cities and then take the train for long distance. In Canada, the biggest cities are very, very far apart. I find it is difficult to make people understand this fundamental difference between north american and european car culture.
Well put!
Just a word, most of the problem in the USA imo is SUVs in the suburbs, where the driving is almost city like.

[attack eagle]

yes, but in europe they don't have to travel great distances between cities like we do, so they can afford to drive shitbox econo cars in cities and then take the train for long distance. In Canada, the biggest cities are very, very far apart. I find it is difficult to make people understand this fundamental difference between north american and european car culture.
true. The nearest cities to mine, are 1 hour away, the nearest moderate sized cities are 4-6 hours away (tucson and ABQ).
I'm renting a Charger next week and driving 1200 miles (each way) to go visit my parents.(don;t want to take the BMW out of town until I get a rebuilt DS, new brakes, and cooling system redone)

Even after paying rental for 2 weeks, and gas at $4.00 for the estimated 3000 miles I did on my trip last year, it is STILL cheaper for m family of 4 than Flying or taking the train for 2-3 days (sleeping berths etc).

Healtoeit... with our safety regs, for people with small children, there really hasn't been a good alternative to SUVs in a while. I htink the only small car I ever looked at that would fit carseats plus adults comfortably was a forrester, and those things cost as much at the time as any other SUV and didn;t get any better mileage. And in that case it was useless for shopping because it had no storage room in the back...

Interesting thought:
A 35-40 mpg car cost more per MILE now (@ 4.10 gallon) than:
my 1 ton Chevy 454 pulling a 20,000 lb trailer did 5 years ago on $1.25 at 10 mpg...
and far more than:
the ~300,000 mile 78 4x4 GMC 1/2 ton did 10 years ago. (full time case, welded diffs, P buckshot mudders) 9mpg on 0.90 gas.
My talon AWD on high boost at 24 mpg city 2 years ago when I bought the Touring