AT my wits now! I think i have tested everything!!

[ber55ber55]

Symptoms: Car has a 400 or < idle. When throttle is given and held (lets say to 3k rpms) the car drops back to 400 rpms after about 1 to 2 seconds and then recovers back to 3000 rpms (when i hold the throttle manually in place when it drops it recovers basically but it cant hold it). Engine seems to be running on all 6 cylinders. The second i let go of the clutch when its in gear, she almost dies and I need to give more gas (about 3-4000rpms to just roll a little bit.

Fuel pressure 3 bar. I even hooked it to the fuel pump directly - 5 bar. Had fuel pump out too to check filter...it was clean. Fuel filter was replaced about 200 miles ago

New spark plugs - no difference

All belts seemed intacked

Dont think its leaking injectors since the car starts fine each time, and leaking injectors would cause the cylinders to flood and not start, right?

Cam sensor.....i dont think so either because the engine runs, just not right, and if the came sensor wasnt working then car wouldnt start at all, right?

Checked valve cover gasket, looked fine

Took out distributor and rotor - everything looked okay - nothing stood out. Had the cables out and they all looked healthy. Brush and contacts all looked good.

Car is no starting problems as well...cranks twice and starts

I unplugged the O2 to see if it made a difference...nothing

Compression test was fine also, so the engine itself is healthy

By the way, the cat has been replaced, and the intake manifold gasket as well, so no vaccum leaks.

A few question:
When the ICV is uplugged, is there suppost to be a difference in how the car runs? Since i have had the car, when you uplug the icv is makes absolutely no difference in how the car runs

TPS is adjusted properly as far as I know, but could this really be the problem for my symptoms?

AFM when i dont have it on or its unplugged, the car still started, but when i hit the gas, the car died? What does this mean? by the way could someone read the resistance values of there AFM when its open and closed, so that I could compare my number that i measured?

My code reading tool read a "intake air temp sensor" code. This is the AFM correct? What does this mean?

THE ONLY THINGS LEFT IT COULD BE:

AFM
DEM or computer system in some way
ICV
Engine temp sensor (the car ran fine the day before this happened, other then some slight idle problems, and later that day when the car was cold, it would run was like it is now. Maybe the engine temp sensor is stuck on the temp it was when the engine was warm?????)
Any other ideas you people have would be greatly appreciated

Thanks to everyone that has given me support and input thus far. When this is fixed, we should all go out for a beer or something haha. =)

[DaveVoorhis]

Have you tested the TPS? I suspect that, the ICV, the AFM, or a vacuum leak.

The fact that the idle doesn't change when you unplug the ICV makes me suspicious of the TPS or the ICV.

The car dying when you accelerate with the AFM disconnected is normal. However, the intake air temp sensor code could be suspicious. There is an air temperature thermistor inside the AFM, but the code might have been set when you disconnected the AFM.

[Derek A.]

sounds like the crank trigger is off. Does the car have good WOT power ?

[ber55ber55]

How would I exactly test the TPS? ICV? AFM?

Yes, I agree the code probably came when I unplugged the AFM....hmmm

[ber55ber55]

Crank trigger?
WOT power?
Excuse my ignorance, but I have no idea what those mean, could you elaborate please?
The car has no type of power whatsoever in anyway shape or form

[genphreak]

sounds like the crank trigger is off. Does the car have good WOT power ?The crank sensor needs to be 1mm above the 60 metal teeth on the crank wheel. It's allen-headed grub-screw commonly gets loose so they fall off or move. Oil sludge can buildup due to the wel-known leaky chain tensioner problem but I think it still works no matter what (unless it has moved that is). This is perhaps the most reliable way ever devised to measure crank position on engines, that said, some people report VR sensor failures.

The IAT sensor is easy to replace, but you have to open the sealed plastic AFM cover. All you need is a worn out Bosch AFM, I don't think it matters what kind- they all seem to have the same IAT in them and I've used IATs from older ones on the newer AFMs with no apparent trouble.

Easiest thing to do is to remove the ICV and run 5 volts DC through it, this should be enough to open and close it smoothly. 12V can be used but the car drives the ICV with 5V so it is a better test.

ie
it has 3 pins; one is ground, one closes the valve, the other opens it.

:) nick

[DaveVoorhis]

How would I exactly test the TPS? ICV? AFM?
The Bentley manual gives various instructions for testing engine sensors, including the CPS (Crank Position Sensor.) and the Throttle Position Switch (TPS).

[DaveVoorhis]

The car has no type of power whatsoever in anyway shape or form
Ah, then it's less likely to be the TPS or ICV. Is it missing severely when you try to accelerate? Or is it running smoothly but not producing power?

[DaveVoorhis]

... leaky chain tensioner problem ...
It's an M20, so it doesn't have one. That does make me wonder, however, if the belt might be so old and flappy that it's slipped a cog.

[ber55ber55]

Idle: low at 400 and very very rough and unsmooth (still after replacing the plugs)

In gear and slowly letting off clutch: Basically dies unless I floor it. Feels like the engine cant take any transfered power from the clutch. When it does move, take seconds to get power then moves...then dies again...and comes back and so forth. Basically missing severly when I try to accelerate. It had power when it ran, not 100% but it moved.

[DaveVoorhis]

If it's missing badly at all engine speeds, it's quite possibly an ignition problem. A bad spark plug lead (or leads) might be shorting out, including the lead from the ignition coil to the distributor. The ignition coil might be bad, too. Or the Crank Position Sensor...

[ber55ber55]

The engine accepts gas when i give throttle, it just cant keep the rpms, and when i try to put load on the engine by engaging the gear the car dies. I dont think its the crank position sensor or that the belt slipped. The belt has 26k miles on it and isnt lose. If it would have slipped everything would be fugged up now. This crank sensor....is it on the front of the engine...and is it above or below the 60 tooth ring....???? thanks again everyone

[ber55ber55]

I was thinking electrical too.....but all looks healthy.......if the coil was bad wouldnt the car die when I just tryed to turn up the rpms??? because the current would increase and completly kill the engine....???

[DaveVoorhis]

The CPS is on the front of the engine above the toothed ring. It's a metal cylinder with a lead coming out of it.

When you say it "just can't keep the RPMs," do you mean it slows down smoothly, or is it missing and stuttering?

[ber55ber55]

tomorrow morning i will check the crank sensor and see...i just need to know how to find it......

also can someone give me resistance reading from there AFM (open and closed) that way I will know if mine is healthy or not?

[ber55ber55]

like.....i give throttle and the engine turns up very smoothly ( from the rough idle) and for a second the engine sounds and runs fine, and then quickly drops back to the low 400 or lower rpms and almost dies off....or sometimes does die off....and when i keep the throttle at lets say 3000rpms and hold it there....it still dies off.....but trys to recover...goes back to 3000rpms and....dies off.....try to recover...and keeps doing it. It cant hold the rpms.

[DaveVoorhis]

if the coil was bad wouldnt the car die when I just tryed to turn up the rpms??? because the current would increase and completly kill the engine....???
Not necessarily. A defective coil usually causes hard starting and rough running, as will bad ignition leads.

[DaveVoorhis]

like.....i give throttle and the engine turns up very smoothly ( from the rough idle) and for a second the engine sounds and runs fine, and then quickly drops back to the low 400 or lower rpms and almost dies off....or sometimes does die off....and when i keep the throttle at lets say 3000rpms and hold it there....it still dies off.....but trys to recover...goes back to 3000rpms and....dies off.....try to recover...and keeps doing it. It cant hold the rpms.
If it runs smoothly but won't hold RPMs, as if you're taking your foot off the throttle but you're not, that's not likely to be ignition. Sounds more like fuel starvation. If fuel pressure is normal, I'd suspect the AFM.

[ber55ber55]

and its not missing.....it just....dies...liek someone turned it off...or cut the fuel....or something....

[DaveVoorhis]

and its not missing.....it just....dies...liek someone turned it off...or cut the fuel....or something....
When it dies, is it like the engine was turned off for a moment, and then re-starts abruptly?

[ber55ber55]

sort off....i wouldn stay turned off. More like choked for a second with a sock in the intake and then takin out. Or a fuel line pinched and then unpinched.....because when it loses rpms, is usually doesnt die completly, just very close...and the key world is usually. Sometime i can start the car and it will idle at 400 rpms without dieing but that is rare. It usually dies off with 1 minute or so. When it does die though, it sounds and feels as if it was choked off. it not a very suttle and smooth off like with the ignition key.

[genphreak]

The engine accepts gas when i give throttle, it just cant keep the rpms, and when i try to put load on the engine by engaging the gear the car dies. I dont think its the crank position sensor or that the belt slipped. The belt has 26k miles on it and isnt lose. If it would have slipped everything would be fugged up now. This crank sensor....is it on the front of the engine...and is it above or below the 60 tooth ring....???? thanks again everyoneWhat about the ICV? Without it operational you could easily see low and poor idle.

[E34-520iSE]

To be honest if that was my car running like that I'd have done a compression test, removed the plugs, checked the static timing, checked the temp sensors and AFM, removed the whole intake side of the engine & removed the rocker cover to check the valves, and then put it all back together again from scratch, making sure all gaskets and seals are 100% sealed. I know it's not easy when you need to use the car though :-( sorry I can't be of any more help.

Best of luck,

Shaun

[BlueM60]

ber55ber55 , this may be a far cry, but I was having a very similar problem on my E30 with M20 motor. A friend at work taold me about a common connector just below the intake for the whole engine side of the harness. Its round, probly like 4" in diameter just below the intake. It fixed mine, what happens is this connector becomes green with corrosion over time and the DME is recieving all kinds of crazy signals from all the engine sensors. I rewired mine and re-pinned the connector, after this the car ran like new. I would also check the T-belt for sure. Let me know if this helps.

-Ben

[ber55ber55]

Did a compression test, removed plugs and put new ones...

How do i check temp sensors?

Had rocker cover off....and checked the seal

Replaced the intake manifold gasket not too long okay, maybe 9k miles ago

[632 Regal]

what spark plugs are you using?

[ber55ber55]

BOSCH Platinum WR8LP....exactly the same ones ive been running since ive had the car..

[ber55ber55]

Where exactly is this plug

Under the airbox?
Under the intake pipe?
Under the throttle?

I looked everywhere and unless is the plug off to the side where you can plug in the reset tool I couldnt see it. Or if its under the airbox, i didnt really look there but I doubt its underdeath there either.

[ber55ber55]

Oh and they have the .7 mm gap as well

[DaveVoorhis]

How do i check temp sensors?
Read your Bentley. It's all there, including diagnostics for the AFM, etc.

No Bentley? Get one.

[ber55ber55]

Problem solved: bad connection

Thanks to everyone that has went through this process with me. I greatly appreciate all the help and input you guys have given me.

Best Regards to all,
Alex

[DaveVoorhis]

Good.

Bad connection where?

[632 Regal]

do us all a favor and pop a set of regular run of the mill NGK plugs. The plats sometimes work and sometimes not and with your description your exactly at crossroads of the common problem of using them plugs.

I'm not going to debate "they worked before" or "theres nothing wrong with them". I'm going to simply urge you to at least start with the *proper* plugs and try to find the issue (if there is one) after. If you have a problem AND the plats are part of the problem you will never figure it out totally and will chase your tail...kinda like your story suggests.

good luck bro!

[genphreak]

Errr. you mean the 4-pin O2 sensor plug? Its a wopping great sealed plug but if they put salt on the roads where you live well it is just another reason why they shouldn't put salt on the roads... I thought you checked the O2 sensor way back in the beginning...

[ber55ber55]

no no no....much worse hahaha...and the way i found out was much worse...

i had just bought to different AFM and 2 coils.....tryed them out and still had the problem......i was then in the process of replacing the DME because i had tried literally everything i could....

i was about the reset the comp and was removing the battery poles....

the first one came of with me unscrewing it and the whole deal....

well...the second one just ****ing slipped off!!! do you know how ****ing pissed of i was.....omfg....i couldnt believe it....i tightened it..and started the car and it ran.....it ran like a sonofabitch......check your battery poles hahahahahaha..anyway....thanks again everyone