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TheEndIsNear
08-27-2006, 10:17 AM
Hi all... Well I test drove an 850CSI yesterday evening when I was in Portland... OMFG, I'm in love! This is so my dream car. I am interested in having one parked next to my e34 by next summer, so the search begins. Any information you all might have on what to look for on mighty auto please pass along. The price on the CSI may limit me to the cheaper 850I, but I'm just so in love with these lines and the ride just made me speechless...

winfred
08-27-2006, 10:29 AM
yea the 8s are pretty cool rides, heres our shop toy a 43k mile 840ci, it has e39 m5 wheels on it now
http://members.cox.net/kitlou/850.JPG
http://members.cox.net/kitlou/851.JPG
http://members.cox.net/kitlou/854.JPG

TheEndIsNear
08-27-2006, 03:01 PM
Yeah the one I drove yesterday had a turbine style rim kinda reminded me of Alpina rims...

Michael999
08-27-2006, 04:34 PM
Ive never even SEEN an 8er in real life, only pictures.
Keep us posted on what you see! :D

winfred
08-27-2006, 05:04 PM
drives like a low tight e34 with a more comfy and supportive seat, the console brings the hvac and stereo to a closer and more handy position and it's fast, if you have no need for a useful back seat i recomend one, i mean seriously, my ****ing 2 door e30 has more room in the back, i hauled two people 1100 miles in the back of my e30 with no complaints


Ive never even SEEN an 8er in real life, only pictures.
Keep us posted on what you see! :D

nizmainiac
08-27-2006, 05:06 PM
i want some of that

Thayne
08-27-2006, 05:38 PM
Wouldn't mind driving one of those! :D

nizmainiac
08-27-2006, 06:12 PM
theres two of them around where i live one blue the other green

Thayne
08-27-2006, 08:25 PM
theres two of them around where i live one blue the other green


I have only seen them a couple of times in the area I live in. One is green the other silver.

BillionPa
08-27-2006, 09:15 PM
the csi does have the V12 and the rear wheel steering, so you wont get the same lust after driving the "lesser" models

shogun
08-27-2006, 09:31 PM
the rear wheel steering,

Since when do they have this?

More info on E31 here
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/e31/

Gayle
08-27-2006, 09:46 PM
I have seen 2 in this bmw thicket known as SoCal. One at the Indy's and one at Dave & Busters parking lot. Never seen one on the road.

shogun
08-27-2006, 09:50 PM
Saturday someone came to me with an 850, he wanted to have the headliner material replaced by me.
Easy job.

Alan_525i
08-27-2006, 10:03 PM
Since when do they have this?

More info on E31 here
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/e31/

My understanding is that only the euro 850CSis have the rear wheel steering, not US models. Not sure about Japan though.

TheEndIsNear
08-27-2006, 10:39 PM
It is only the Euro with the 4 wheel steer... That's what I drove last night...

shogun
08-27-2006, 11:05 PM
more details on the E31 here
http://www.e31.net/

bfd
08-28-2006, 12:23 AM
[QUOTE=TheEndIsNear] The price on the CSI may limit me to the cheaper 850I, /QUOTE]

The first thing you need to do is read Paul Michael Brown's Unofficial BMW E31 Buyer's Guide, see below. If you are serious about an E31, one thing you definitely want to do is get one with ALL service records and the best that you can afford. E31s are very, very expensive to maintain. Remember, there are 2 of everything, and with the V12, parts are very limited = expensive. Good Luck!

Reading material:

THE UNOFFICIAL BMW E31 BUYERS GUIDE

By: Paul Michael Brown
E...@his.com

DRIVING IMPRESSIONS & OWNERSHIP THOUGHTS

For those interested in the E31, the most important thing to appreciate is
that it was designed to be a big, solid, stable grand touring car that's
optimized for long trips at high speed in great comfort. A typical
8-series BMW weighs nearly 4,500 pounds with fuel, luggage and a couple of
passengers. That's about the same as the stodgy Ford Crown Victoria so
beloved by senior citizens and police departments. So even though the
V-12 powerplant delivers about 300 HP with torque to match, the
power-to-weight ratio is such that the car just isn't that fast off the
line. Moreover, the control forces are quite heavy. This control feel
(especially the heavy steering effort) is desirable when driving for hours
at high speed. But at slower speeds and around town the E31 can feel
ponderous and truckish. Remember, the E31 has a long wheelbase of 2684 mm
or 105.6 inches, which makes for a rather large turning radius. The body
is also long (4780 mm or 188 inches) and wide (1855 mm or 74.2 inches) and
the car had two VERY large doors. So narrow parking spaces and other
tight spots in the city are going to be a challenge.

If you want a traditional sports coupe in the tradition of the legendary
//M3, the E31 is not the car for you. The designers made no effort to
build in sporty handling or "tossability." On the contrary, the car is
designed to be very stable at autobahn speeds. All in all, the E31 is the
very antithesis of the nimble, tossable sports car or peppy urban
runabout.

Another thing about the E31 is that it's easily driven very quickly by a
driver of average skill. First, you have gobs of torque on tap and at
anything faster than about 30 mph, the E31 accelerates surprisingly
quickly, despite its heft. Second, more than 75 percent of E31s are
fitted with an autobox. If you choose the sport mode, the computer locks
out the top gear and uses a very aggressive shifting map. So forget about
matching revs with perfect heel-and-toe technique. Just stab and steer and
let all that torque, combined with the magic of traction control make up
for your technique. If you happen to find yourself on a road with some
longish straight sections in an E31, you'll be able to compensate for the
time you lose in the twisties. To be sure, this isn't exactly a purist's
ride. (You'll have to ignore the snickering directed at your autobox.) But
for the typical driver, the E31 is a very forgiving car and quite
comfortable to drive quickly.

Of course, as I noted above, the ideal element for the E31 is out on the
freeway chomping up hundreds of miles in a single sitting. In this
environment, the E31 is simply without peer. From 50 to 100+ MPH, it's
lose-your-license fast. And more importantly, it is utterly, totally rock
solid and at those speeds. The coefficient of drag is a super-low 0.29 and
the aerodynamics are such that even at very high speeds there is
absolutely no lift or even a suggestion of skittish handling. (Note how
the E31 achieves this without obnoxious boy racer bodywork. Proof
positive that less is more.) Moreover, out on the freeway at speed the
E31's bulk and wide track make the car all but impervious to crosswinds or
dirty air stirred up by large trucks. Simply put, the car is devoid of
drama and easy to drive fast in almost all conditions. I once drove my
1991 850i through the outer edge of a hurricane on I-95 in North
Carolina. The rain fell in sheets and the winds blew with great
intensity. But with the cruise control set on 70 MPH my E31 ignored the
weather. Indeed, the only challenge on that trip was finding a gas
station that wasn't boarded up and closed. In better weather, it's simple
to crank off a three-hour leg during which you cover 225 miles in a single
sitting. (Traffic and law enforcement permitting.) I routinely take road
trips where I drive 650-750 miles in a single day. I get about 19.5 mpg,
and I arrive refreshed, rested and relaxed. To me, that's the "fast" that
counts -- not hypothetical hot laps on a track someplace.

With regard to creature comforts, you should know that while the E31 is in
theory a 2+2, the rear seats are useless for anybody larger than a child
unless your trip is going to be very short. That's just as well, because
luggage for more than two people won't fit in the trunk, which isn't all
that large due to the fact that it also holds two batteries plus the CD
changer and the massive 24-gallon gas tank eats up lots of room around the
rear axle. So in the end, the E31 is ideal for two people going on a road
trip. In the front seat the roofline is low and the sunroof mechanism
intrudes into the headliner a little bit. So headroom might be a concern
if you are tall or you prefer an upright, NASCAR-like driving posture.
Most E31 owners, however, find it adequate, and the adjustable power seats
to be comfortable. The stereo was state-of-the-art circa 1990, but by
today's standards it's no big deal. So don't expect audiophile sound and
realize that reception on the AM band is going to be poor because the
antennas (yes, there are more than one) are hidden inside the bodywork.

OK -- if you are still interested in purchasing a used E31 at this point,
it's time to go to school on the marque. The following should prove
helpful.

DESIGN OVERVIEW

[At the outset, I would like to express my appreciation to Mr. Mike
Coenen, who maintains a superb E31 site at http://www.e31.net. Mr.
Coenen, prevailed upon Herr Zeichner at BMW's archives in Munich to
assemble much of the sales and production data that follows.]

The BMW 8-series (internal platform code E31) began production in May of
1989 and remained in production until May of 1999. A total of 30,581 E31s
were built, of which 6,431 were imported into the United States with the
remainder sold in Europe and worldwide. This discussion will focus on
the E31 variants imported into the United States.

The first E31 variant sold in the United States was the 850i. It it by
far the most numerous, representing 4,194 units of the 6,431 E31s imported
into U.S. (That's just a little bit short of two-thirds.) Curiously,
data from the BMW archives shows that 647 examples of the 850i were sold
in the United States during the 1990 model year. But frankly, I've never
seen a 1990 850i advertised for sale anywhere. If anybody owns one,
please send me the VIN and I'll look into it.

In 1991 and 1992 BMW sold 2,517 examples of the 850i in the United
States. MSRP was roughly $75,000. If you are looking to purchase a used
E31, be advised that the 850I from 1991 and 1992 dominates the market,
with the 1993 850Ci close behind. The 850Ci from 1994 forward is VERY
difficult to find. The 840Ci (with the V-8 motor) from 1994 forward is
somewhat easier to find.

POWERPLANT: If you are a true car guy, at least once in your life you
should own a car with a V-12. And when you look at all the V-12 powered
cars available today, the only one that is even remotely affordable is the
E31. All examples of the 850i were powered by a 5.0 liter M70B50 V 12.
The M70 engine series features a relatively conservative design. For
example, there were just two hydraulically-adjusted valves per cylinder,
operated by a single chain-driven overhead camshaft. Compression was a
low 8.8 to 1, so the engine is not fitted with a knock sensor and it will
run on 89 octane gas. The connecting rods were identical to the nearly
bulletproof units installed on the legendary 2.5 liter straight-six motor
fitted to the 525i and other BMW models. Some features of the M70B50
engine were slightly more advanced. The 60-degree monoblock was cast in
an aluminum-silicon alloy BMW called Alusil, and the cylinders are
linerless. Two sets of engine control electronics are installed, one for
each cylinder bank. In the event one set fails, the car will still
operate on the opposite cylinder bank in "limp home mode." Think of it as
two of BMW's 2.5 liter straight six engines sharing a common crankshaft.
Power output is roughly 300 HP with 320 lb/ft of torque. And because
it's a V-12, this power is available at very low RPM. As the track guys
like to say, "horsepower may sell cars but torque wins races." So at
anything faster than about 30 mph, acceleration is brisk and the car feels
frisky despite its heft.

There is no mechanical throttle linkage on the E31. Instead, a "throttle
by wire" system is used. After considering a variety of factors,
including the position of the gas pedal, the engine management electronics
operate "DK motors" to control the engine speed. The DK motors, however,
are a maintenance issue. Eventually, they wear out and the engine control
software does not like that at all. You get fault warnings and the car
goes into "limp home" mode. Rebuilding DK motors is impractical, so
you're looking at about $700 each (plus labor) to replace them. In my
view, an E31 with two new DK motors should command a premium of $1,000 to
$1,500.

Another problem area is the intake manifold gaskets, which develop leaks
that manifest themselves as rough cold idle. (Very easy to mistake for a
bad oxygen sensor, by the way.) Dinan used to sell a thicker gasket that
solves the problem, but as the E31 ages Dinan will probably discontinue
this item. An alternative repair is to use a liquid sealant and the OEM
gaskets. In either case, the repair is simple but labor intensive.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the M70B50 motor is less prone to
this problem than the M73B54 motor, perhaps because it's lower
compression. But the data is spotty. Again, a car with this upgrade
should command a premium. Otherwise, you're looking at a $1,500-2,000
repair if you get a leak.

The last potential engine-related problem is going to be related to the
cooling system. The E31 features a physically large engine stuffed into a
small engine compartment that has limited cooling airflow. Moreover,
unlike more modern cars the E31 is not fitted with an electric fan that
runs while the car is parked. Nor does it have an oil cooler. (Although
it's possible to retrofit one from the European parts catalog.) So it's
vitally important that the cooling system be maintained in perfect working
order lest you cook all that exotic aluminum alloy. Look for evidence in
the service logs that the car had a cooling system flush and fill at least
every 24 months, preferably more often. Ask about hot running problems,
especially if you live in a warmer climate or you encounter stop-and-go
traffic on a daily basis. A well-maintained 850i from the 1991 or 1992
model year will almost certainly have had the fan clutch and the water
pump replaced. If the seller cannot prove this has been done, plan on
spending about $1,500 to replace both these items.

TRANSMISSION: About 75 percent of the examples of the 850i were fitted
with a four-speed ZF 4-HP/24 EH autobox. This transmission does a good
job soaking up all that torque and getting two tons of car moving. A
sport mode can be selected that locks out fourth gear and increases the
RPM where the shifts occur. A primitive manual mode a la Porsche's
Steptronic may also be employed. The E31 has so much torque that rear
wheel slip is always a concern. So it is equipped with the ASC + T
system, which stands for Automatic Stability Control plus Traction. If
rear wheel slip is detected through the ABS sensors, the ASC + T software
will reduce the throttle opening even if the driver has his foot on the
floor. If a rear wheel continues to slip, the software will apply the
brake, even though the driver may not be pressing the brake pedal.

When the weather is inclement, the E31 will never be confused with a
four-wheel-drive SUV. But the ASC + T system really does work and the car
is quite tractable in the rain and even in light snow. A word of caution,
however. As I note below, many E31s have been fitted with low profile
tires that are considerably wider than the 235 mm stock rubber. Moreover,
the use of ultra high performance tires is common. This setup works great
in dry conditions. But in my view it makes the car less driveable in the
rain and snow. If you plan to drive your E31 daily, you should look for a
car with tires closer to the 235 mm stock size and you should consider
fitting a tire with good all season performance, such as the Michelin XGT
Z4.

About 25 percent of the 850i production run was fitted with the Gertrag
6-speed manual transmissions. The Gertrag gearbox seems fine, but
anecdotal evidence suggests that the clutch is not up to the task of
launching such a heavy car with so much torque. So if you find a
six-speed E31 you can probably expect to replace the clutch more
frequently than you would on, say, a 328is or even an //M3. In my view,
the autobox is the better transmission because it's more compatible with
the Grand Touring design of the E31. When inspecting the service logs of
a used 850i equipped with an autobox, look to see if the owner has
replaced the fluid and filter roughly every 12-18 months. The use of
Mobil 1 synthetic ATF is a real plus. If this has been neglected, you
could be facing expensive autobox maintenance in the future.

SUSPENSION: The front suspension features double-jointed struts with
integral shocks and coil springs, while the rear features a multilink
setup using separate coil springs and active rear wheel steering. The
front thrust rod bushings are a wear item. A car with new bushings,
preferably with new thrust rods and a new idler arm as well, should
command a premium. The ride is tuned to be comfortable in the GT car
tradition, not jarring in the sports car manner. The 850i was fitted with
16-inch wheels wearing 235/50 tires. The stock BMW wheel was cast
aluminum alloy in the "basketweave" design, and the optional BMW wheel was
forged aluminum alloy in the ellipsoidal "turbine" design. IMHO, the
latter is handsome without being trendy and its easy to keep clean of
brake dust.

Unfortunately 235/50 x 16 is an "orphan" size tire that's difficult to
find, so many examples of the E31 will be fitted with 245/50 tires on the
stock BMW wheels, or you'll see a "plus one conversion" to 17-inch
aftermarket wheels and lower-profile tires. Occasionally, you'll find a
"plus two" conversion to 18-inch wheels and super-low-profile tires. In
my opinion, the stock 16-inch wheels (using 245/50 tires) provide a
comfortable ride and more grip than you'll ever need. Granted, it won't
look as cool as a plus one or a plus two. But you won't be tramlining or
bending rims either. Of course, you may not worship at the altar of stock
as I do. So YMMV.

ANCILLARY SYSTEMS: The E31 was equipped with every conceivable creature
comfort and gadget that BMW could think of, including voice-activated cell
phone, trunk-mounted CD changer, dual-zone climate control, multiple radio
antennas hidden inside the bodywork, onboard first aid kit plus tool kit,
and window glass that automatically rolls down a few millimeters when you
open the door and then rolls up again when you close the door. So don't
be fooled by ads that say "loaded." All E31s are going to be "loaded."
Most of this stuff is fairly reliable, but there are a few known problems.

For example, the power seats are of a very sophisticated design. (Note
how the seat belts are anchored to the seat itself, vice being connected
to the B-pillar, which is absent in the E31. So the seat is mounted to
the floor pan with bolts that look like they came off a battleship.) But
the cable that adjusts the bottom cushion gets out of rig. This can be
seen by exercising the seat through its full range of motion and watching
to see if the bottom cushion adjusts unevenly. It if rubs up against the
center console, the cable needs adjusting. The fix is simple if you know
what you're doing and expensive if you don't.

The onboard computer (OBC) has a large display for displaying information
about average speed, outside temp, gas mileage, etc. Way cool for a late
80s design, but the connector on the ribbon cable between the computer's
processor and the display is poorly designed. Moisture and dust creep into
the connector and cause intermittent "dead" pixels on the display. Expect
all used E31s to have this problem to some degree. The connector cannot be
cleaned or replaced separately, so the only fix is to replace the entire
assembly, processor, connector and display. Figure $300 for part plus
labor to remove and replace. Verify the sunroof slides AND tilts.
Sometimes the mechanism gets out of adjustment and one or both functions
stops working. Expect the stupid coinholder on the driver's door to look
like hell. (A COIN HOLDER?!? What were the guys in Bavaria thinking?)

Usually, the only optional equipment you'll find will be the forged (vice
cast) alloy wheels in the "turbine" design and the Electronic Damping
Control. EDC is a primitive version of what the Formula One people might
call an "reactive suspension" in that it changes shock valving on the
fly. Problem is that even when the system is working it doesn't do much
for handling. And when it breaks, you're looking at more than $1,000 for
EACH replacement shock. So if you ask me, EDC is not a selling point.
Look for an E31 without it, or one where the owner has replaced the EDC
shocks with conventional shocks.

Almost all E31s available on the used car market will have new shocks,
which brings up another note of caution. Using BMW parts requires
replacing the entire front struts, at about $600 each, plus about $150
each for the rear shocks. Adding labor costs at a good independent shop in
a big city, the total cast for replacing the front struts and the rear
shocks with genuine BMW parts will be about $2,500. Obviously, a car with
this repair should command a premium.

Some owners have elected to use Bilstein Sport shocks, rebuilding the
front strut in the process. This is drastically cheaper because the
original front struts are recycled instead of being replaced. Sometimes,
shorter and stiffer springs from H&R, Eibach, etc. are fitted at the same
time. This creates a problem. Regardless of whether the Bilsteins are
installed with the stock springs or in combination with aftermarket
springs, the resulting ride height is MUCH LOWER than stock and the amount
of suspension travel is MUCH reduced. Add in a plus-one or plus two
wheel/tire change (with the super-short sidewalls) and the result is
(IMHO) an EXTREMELY harsh ride that's not in keeping with the E31's grand
touring character. Moreover, the stress that's usually absorbed by the
stock tires and suspension has to go somewhere (like the shock mounts on
the subframe). This is not a good thing for a big heavy car over a decade
old.

I realize that lots of owners like the look of a lowered car with big
wheels. And I concede that a suspension that feels harsh to me is
"comfortably firm" to somebody else. But in the end, I take the position
that the BMW engineers knew what they were doing when they elected to use
50 series tires and taller springs with matching shocks. Replacement using
the BMW parts maintains the supple ride the original designers intended,
with no sacrifice in handling. Done by a competent independent mechanic,
this repair is costly which explains why so few owners go this route. But
IMHO it's the best way to go.

In 1993, the 850Ci was introduced and MSRP crept up in increments, finally
reach roughly $95,000. In 1993, the 850Ci was largely identical to the
850i save for some creature comforts discussed below. (In fact, a tiny
number of cars in the 1993 model year still had the six speed
transmission. The following year the six-speed was discontinued. So next
to the 850CSi, a 1993 six-speed 850Ci is the rarest of all E31s.) From
1994 forward, all examples of the 850Ci had the 5.4 liter M73B54 V-12
powerplant and the 5-speed ZF "sealed for life" (allegedly) autobox.
Inside the cabin of the 850Ci, wood dashboard trim was added and the seats
were covered in a Nappa leather that had a more "gathered" look than the
tightly-stretched leather used on the 850i. You also get a passenger
airbag, at the cost of losing one of the two gloveboxes fitted on the
850i. The 850Ci remained in production until 1999. However, it should be
noted that no examples of the 850Ci manufactured during the 1998 or 1999
model year were imported into the United States. (The handful that were
built, were largely sold in Europe.) Compared to the 850i, the 850Ci did
not sell nearly as well in the United States. So it is considerably more
rare on the used car market and it commands a premium price.

In 1995, the 840Ci was introduced. It featured the same chassis as the
850Ci, but it was powered by a V-8 engine of 4 liters displacement. At
first the 840Ci lacked some of the creature comforts found on the 850Ci
such as wood trim and a CD changer in trunk. But by the 1997 model year,
the cars were largely identical save for the engine. In the 1998 model
year, the MSRP of an 840Ci was roughly $75K and an 850Ci was roughly
$95K. As a result, toward the end of the E31 run the 840Ci outsold the
850Ci by roughly 3-to-1. In the used car market, however, you see a
paradox. Even though the 840Ci has a lesser motor and (on some models)
fewer bells and whistles than the 850Ci, it generally sells for MORE. In
my view, this is because the 840s are generally newer and buyers are
concerned about maintenance costs associated with the V-12, such as the DK
motors and the intake manifold gaskets. On the other hand, the M60B40 V-8
motors with the Nikasil blocks fitted in early examples of the 840Ci react
adversely to the higher sulphur content in U.S. blend gasoline and the
cylinder bores are damaged, causing a leakdown problem. In early 1997,
BMW began making the V-8 blocks from Alusil, just like the V-12 blocks.
Meanwhile, many of the motors with the Nikasil blocks have been replaced
by motors with the Alusil blocks under a special rule instituted by
BMWNA. So if you're looking at a 1994-1996 840Ci, you should ascertain
what type of block it has and negotiate accordingly. For more than you
ever wanted to know about this, I invite our attention to the superb
report by BMW Master Mechanic Brett Anderson, at:

http://www.koalamotorsport.com/v8shortblock.htm.

Of course, no discussion of the E31 would be complete without mentioning
the mighty 850CSi. Imported into the United States only in 1994 and 1995,
the 850CSi fetched in excess of $100K when new and it featured numerous
tuner modifications that resulted in true supercar performance. For
example, it featured: "variable throttle linkage," by which the gain in
the electronics could be varied to make the car more tractable around town
and more responsive elsewhere; variable rev limiter (limit varies
depending on what gear you are in * 1st and 2nd = 6400, 3rd = 6200, 4th =
6100, 5th and 6th = 6000 RPM); Yew hardwood trim (and more wood in general
than a non-CSi); special lighter pistons; longer stroke (from 75 to 80mm);
wider stock tires; vehicle speed sensitive steering as opposed to engine
speed sensitive steering; different steering ratio; double-wall larger
diameter forward exhaust pipes; "BMW Motorsport" door handles; stainless
steel (not chrome) exhaust pipes; BMW "M" steering wheel; and the
tachometer has a slanted redline indicating the variable rpm limiting.
There were also specific color combinations available. Think of it as an
//M8 without the badge. Only about 200 exist in the United States as I
write this. If you can find one, you'll pay at least $55,000. This is
the ultimate version of the E31 -- a true exotic. Don't be fooled by fake
versions of the 850CSi for sale. See below on how to recognize the
genuine article.

SALES HISTORY

With only 30,000 sold in nine years the E31 was never a smash hit. (Honda
sells that many Accords in a MONTH.) The E31 was introduced in the
summer of 1991 during a recession in the United States and it seemed like
the market for big coupes seemed to dry up right about that time. (Which
was also about the same time as the SUV craze began to take off.) IMHO,
the E31 had several problems from a sales standpoint. First, it wasn't a
traditional BMW. By that I mean it wasn't a nimble sport sedan or sport
coupe. Rather, it was a big, honking, Autobahnstormer. In other words,
the kind of car Helmut Kohl would love. At triple digit speeds, the E31's
bulk and power and solidity was an asset. But around town it could be a
handful. And it definitely didn't fit the average Bimwad's ideal. So the
traditional BMW owner base virtually ignored the E31 and the
tuner/track/autocross crowd tended to purchase //M3s.

Second, the E31 is a very maintenance-intensive car. To own an 8-series
requires a substantial investment in upkeep and a high tolerance for
downtime. The captains of industry who bought the car were generally not
willing to accept this. They figured that after shelling out in excess of
$75,000 for a car, it ought to require only the cheapest and most
infrequent of upkeep to be totally, utterly, superbly reliable. In other
words, they wanted a car that was an easy to maintain as a Japanese luxury
sedan. (E31 Owners Joke: "What's the best place to find a used E31? On
the used car lot of the local Lexus dealer!") Yet they wanted it to drive
like a BMW. Not gonna happen. So the prices of used E31s have fallen
dramatically.

Of course I'm biased, but I think that big coupes are going to make a
comeback. All those middle-aged rich guys are going to soon realize that
their Z3 or their Boxster or their S2000 is fun for the occasional weekend
jaunt. But when it comes to a daily driver or a car for longer trips,
something more substantial is called for. Granted, they could buy a
7-series or an S-Class Benz. But the 50-something guy in the four-door
German sedan is a cliche. I predict drivers with a little more style are
going to rediscover the E31. IMHO, the styling still looks sharp -- even
though it's been a decade since it hit the market. And the 8-series is
rare enough to turn heads. Finally, for the driver who's tired of a stiff
sports car ride, the E31's handling is a refreshing change.

Now a good program of regular maintenance by a top-notch mechanic can do
much to prevent some of this trouble. But certain things (like the intake
manifold gaskets and the DK motors) are eventually going to break no
matter what you do. So unlike that Accord you didn't buy, even a well
maintained E31 is a car that requires frequent and expensive service. And
a "bargain" E31 that develops big-ticket problems could literally wipe you
out. All of this means that it won't be long before we have people
buying E31s who cannot afford to maintain them. They're going to drive
them for six months or a year (while doing little or no maintenance) then
sell them at fire sale prices to another person who doesn't know any
better. IMHO, this will create a class of "beater" E31s that will continue
to depreciate to ridiculously low levels. You already see this with regard
to the Porsche 928 variants.

Given this phenomenon, it's fair to say that "E31s will continue to
depreciate." But there will also be a certain E31s out there whose owners
took excellent care of them. For example, I purchased by 1991 850i from
the original owner, and I can afford to maintain it. Whoever buys it from
me will have paperwork and a stack of service records an inch thick.
IMHO, E31s in this class will always command a premium. So if you're in
the market for an E31, go into it with your eyes open. Don't buy a cheap
one off a dealer's lot. Look instead for one offered for sale by an owner
who has taken good care of it. You'll have to be patient. But it will be
worth the effort. The E31 is truly an amazing car to drive.

SPOTTING A FAKE 850CSi THAT'S REALLY AN 850i OR AN 850Ci

Given that the 850CSi is the ultimate example of the E31 and truly exotic
supercar, and given that the body styles are similar, some unscrupulous
sellers have added cosmetic mods to an E31 and they then try to sell it as
an 850CSi. Here's how to tell the difference.

First, recall that the overwhelming majority of all E31s (over 95 percent)
have an autobox. Then note that NO example of the 850Csi had an autobox.
So if the car has an autobox, it's not an 850CSi. Don't be fooled by
stories that the "previous owner swapped out the six-speed for an
autobox." If you hear something like that, run the other way because the
seller is not trustworthy.

In rare cases, you might need to look further.

Check first seven characters of the VIN. Don't trust the number on the
title. Sometimes it's wrong. Instead, look at the metal data plate
visible through the lower left corner of the windshield.

If the first seven characters are WBAEG23, the car was manufactured as an
850i or an 850Ci with a four-speed autobox.

WBAEG13 means the car was built as an 850i or an 850Ci with a six-speed
manual. Most of your fakes will have this beginning to their VINs.

Recall that the 850CSi was only built in 1994 and 1995. Now look at the
tenth character of the VIN. If it's an M or an N, it's an 850i (1991 or
1992, respectively). Otherwise, it's an 850Ci. As noted previously,
beginning with the introduction of the 850Ci in 1993, almost all E31s
except for the 850CSi had the five-speed autobox.

For purposes of VIN allocation, all examples of the 850CSi are considered
products of BMW Motorsports. (Yeah, I know some say it's not a real //M8.
But the beginning of the VIN is the same as other //M cars.) So the first
three characters of the VIN on a real 850CSi will be WBS. Sorry, but I
don't know the four-character model code for the 850CSi.

Michael999
08-28-2006, 03:59 AM
I read about 2 pages worth, then got bored...
Good find with that buyers guide.

Pity the 8ers cost so much in Oz :(

beetos
08-28-2006, 05:05 AM
CSi's are very very rare, but awesome cars. Just make sure its the real deal before jumping in!

TheEndIsNear
08-28-2006, 09:13 AM
Wow, that was a lot of information... I think I'm a little overwhelmed... Thank you so much bfd, that information will assist me in my quest... As of now the only one I have ever driven is that Euro 850CSI with the 4 wheel steer... Dispite what I've read about lack of power under 30mph, this car scared me off the line... There is such a huge amount of tourqe and horse power that I actually spun the tires at 55mph comming onto an I5 onramp near Portland... She was such a blast to drive but my eyes may be bigger than my wallet. This year I'm takeing an IT job that might just pay enough to get something like this off the ground and if all is well I'll be driving one by Aug. next year... Thank you all for all this great info, if anybody around here knows of an 850i, 850ci, or an 840i somewhere in my area please pass it along... I'd love to drive these other models as well, before makeing up my mind.

Ross
08-28-2006, 11:23 AM
As a 3 time veteran of V-12 ownership i offer this advice. DOCUMENTED proper service for these is a must unless you intend to become expert with servicing them yourself.
I'm sure Shogun will also have something to offer regarding this.
Deferred maintenance on these is common due to the high cost. Catching up on it is VERY expensive. This is why you can buy examples of these at 10% of original cost.
Pay up for a car that has proof of proper care.
They are quite rewarding when right and absolute hell when not.

Incantation
08-28-2006, 12:34 PM
They are quite rewarding when right and absolute hell when not
ditto on this..

and if you chip the 850i it won't be as fast as the csi still, but it will be quicker. lots of great posts about this car so far. as an owner myself i wouldn't recommend buying one unless you KNOW its history.. mechanical stuff is a nightmare to deal with

TheEndIsNear
08-28-2006, 02:58 PM
Well today I started playing with the idea of bringing one over from Germany... I can ship for free thanks to a friend. I'm looking in to required conversions to make one legal. Like I said before this in a new endevor for me... I will prob get hit with some sticker shock and end up holding off yet another year but at least I'll be informed.

zman-95-540i
08-28-2006, 03:06 PM
Good luck in your search. I was looking for an 850 before I decided to focus on the 540. I found a few but the maintenance was spotty and I wasn't ready to take the plunge.

Blitzkrieg Bob
08-28-2006, 03:09 PM
I see one in the paper.

The V-12s go for anywhere between 7K to 10K.

The V-8s seem to go higher 10K to 16K.

There was one CSI floating around for 24K.

The only thing is I hardly ever seen them on the road.....

bfd
08-28-2006, 04:12 PM
Bob states:

<There was one CSI floating around for 24K>

If it was a *true* CSI, I would RUN AWAY as fast as possible. If you can find one, real 850CSis sell in the $40-65K range.

As for shipping from Germany, good luck! Euro spec cars can be quite different from US ones and maybe very costly to get through customs. Remember, you have to comply with both emission and bumper/impact regulations.

As Ross and Incantation have stated, get one with FULL documentation. Otherwise, I've heard horror stores of maintenance in the $5,000 per month range...ouch! The E31s are definitely not a bargain hunters car.

angrypancake
08-28-2006, 05:22 PM
i saw one today, an 850csi. also, i drove it.... last summer when i was working as a valet. alpine white, 6 speed, custom stereo and color matched 18" wheels, lowered, holy ****......

632 Regal
08-28-2006, 05:28 PM
this thread has me buggin... "55mph onramp, spinning tires" oh my gosh!

winfred
08-28-2006, 09:08 PM
mmmmmm......torque
massive **** loads of torque rule, one of the reasons i love my truck and it's only slightly above stock at 250hp and a little over 500 foot pounds, a #10 plate (cam plate in the injection pump, sorta like the personality of the fuel system) should add almost 100 hp and over 200lb :D but i need a stronger clutch before that level :(


this thread has me buggin... "55mph onramp, spinning tires" oh my gosh!

TheEndIsNear
08-28-2006, 09:26 PM
The amount of wheelspin this car produces is off the chain... I talked to the guy in Portland about it again today, he said that the one I drove is chipped and has disabled the traction control... He says it hit the dyno at 435 ponys...

TheEndIsNear
08-28-2006, 09:27 PM
But he also has a lot of work into it and want's just shy of 75k for it. That's just a hair over my budget... ...a big hair...

Blitzkrieg Bob
08-28-2006, 09:32 PM
I think for 75k I'd buy a 840, and 540-6, X5, a 2002 and still have 20K to play with. oh, and a VW thing for laughs

winfred
08-28-2006, 09:58 PM
with a bridge port 13b rotary, probably be the fastest and cheepest one of the group


and a VW thing for laughs

Blitzkrieg Bob
08-28-2006, 10:07 PM
it's like kicking a bad drug habit...

1st it's Webers, headers, trans, diff, than porting, stationary gear welding, injection, turbo, boost injection more porting...just.. just can't stop...

Had a gutted 1973 Rx2 with a 12a Rx7 motor & trans and a never ending stream of mods.

When I moved on to Rx7s, went clean and stock and began enjoying my weekends again

TheEndIsNear
08-28-2006, 11:26 PM
I'd love a VW thing... I live so close to the water... Hell Ya!!!

Blitzkrieg Bob
08-29-2006, 12:54 AM
in the middle of a full restoration, the guy had everything, top, window panels extra this, that and the other thing....But then...my car dealer friend shows me this 1990 525 for 3k, and well the rest is history.....Plus my family said that they would refuse to ride with me in a VW thing.

Hell my MG42 would look real cool on a mount in the back...watch out commuters!

Alexlind123
08-29-2006, 01:15 AM
I saw a very very nice 8 in portland as well...it was black.

TheEndIsNear
08-29-2006, 07:12 AM
Hey Alex, long time... The one I was playing around with is Black with a wheel that closly resembles the Alpina rim...