What is that kik-tik sound?

[Akhil]

Hi guys,
I got a problem on my 92 525i (152,000 Miles) started a weird sound for past few days. Its kinda kit-kit-kit-……. Sound which is very clear audible when idling, and goes on faster with RPM. I tried to hear where its coming from but could not find what is causing it, but its coming form some where at top of engine. Additionally, when I start my engine in morning (when engine is cold) then I don’t get this sound until I drive at least 5 miles(until engine get hot). Can any one of you guys suggest me where should I start looking and what are usual suspects in this kind of symptom?

Thanks a lot
Akhil

[piman]

Do a valve lash adjustment is all you can do. And even then it still tics.

[Akhil]

But I don’t understand that why do it start tik sound after engine gets hot (not just worm)? Is this something related to oil thickness? Before my last oil change I always used 15W40 or 20W50 (conventional) but I never had this problem, last oil change I used Mobil1 0W40 synthetic (about 1000 mile ago) and now I am getting this sound. Could it be related to my oil?

Thanks
Akhil

[632 Regal]

it could be but I think it has a lot more to do with your valve adjustment and the thicker stuff was a bandaid.


But I don’t understand that why do it start tik sound after engine gets hot (not just worm)? Is this something related to oil thickness? Before my last oil change I always used 15W40 or 20W50 (conventional) but I never had this problem, last oil change I used Mobil1 0W40 synthetic (about 1000 mile ago) and now I am getting this sound. Could it be related to my oil?

Thanks
Akhil

[Alexlind123]

It could be an injector.

[SharkmanBMW]

it could be but I think it has a lot more to do with your valve adjustment and the thicker stuff was a bandaid.


key word, bandaid... now your problem becomes apparent.

[Jon K]

can 100% be injector click

You can't adjust M50 valves.

[Alexlind123]

You probably want to get your injectors checked out ASAP, a sticking injector could burn a valve.

[Rustam]

But I don’t understand that why do it start tik sound after engine gets hot (not just worm)? Is this something related to oil thickness? Before my last oil change I always used 15W40 or 20W50 (conventional) but I never had this problem, last oil change I used Mobil1 0W40 synthetic (about 1000 mile ago) and now I am getting this sound. Could it be related to my oil?

Thanks
Akhil

Your car uses hydraulic lifters for the rockers - that is the reason why the valves do not need valve adjustment. Those lifters get filled with oil. They perform valve adjustment in real time, every moment the engine runs. So the oil is a relevant element in affecting the ticking sound...

I guess for some reason the oil pressure drops when the engine heats up, not allowing the lifters to use as much oil as they need to continually adjust to the valves.

[Akhil]

Alexlind123 could be right, the location of tik sounds is very close to injectors or fule pressure regulator (closest to 6th cyl.), But I don't know what how injectors work so can't be sure. Is there any moving parts in injector which can cause this sound? And if it is injector, shouldn't that cause same sound always, irrespective of engine temp. ? How can I test injector?

Thanks
Akhil

[Rustam]

Alexlind123 could be right, the location of tik sounds is very close to injectors or fule pressure regulator (closest to 6th cyl.), But I don't know what how injectors work so can't be sure. Is there any moving parts in injector which can cause this sound? And if it is injector, shouldn't that cause same sound always, irrespective of engine temp. ? How can I test injector?

Thanks
Akhil

Generally, the injector has a winding that develops magnetic field to attract a nozzle sleve so that the fuel can escape. So - there are moving parts in an injector that can cause a sound of variable volume depending on the quality of injector. The sound of injector out of my car was exactly same as a sound of a switching relay when I connected it to 12V output once. So, it is quite possible to have rather loud ticking sound produced by injectors.

I guess that injectors should make same volume of sound with hot engine and with cold engine. I guess the problem is related to lack of oil in the hydraulic lifters, due to which the spacing is incresed creating ticking sound...

[Jon K]

Generally, the injector has a winding that develops magnetic field to attract a nozzle sleve so that the fuel can escape. So - there are moving parts in an injector that can cause a sound of variable volume depending on the quality of injector. The sound of injector out of my car was exactly same as a sound of a switching relay when I connected it to 12V output once. So, it is quite possible to have rather loud ticking sound produced by injectors.

I guess that injectors should make same volume of sound with hot engine and with cold engine. I guess the problem is related to lack of oil in the hydraulic lifters, due to which the spacing is incresed creating ticking sound...


Depending on what oil he is running, it may be thicker during cold start than when warmed, and thus the thinning oil may be too thin to keep valve tick down. I wouldn't say it's a lack of oil, or he'd have some pretty hosed valves.

Additionally, larger injectors will click louder. It essentially has to do witht he size of the pin inside slapping too and from based on the +GND switching. For instance my 30# injectors are exponentially louder than my 17# stockers. Both are bosch part numbers. My friends 42# are even louder than my 30#.

[Rustam]

Depending on what oil he is running, it may be thicker during cold start than when warmed, and thus the thinning oil may be too thin to keep valve tick down. I wouldn't say it's a lack of oil, or he'd have some pretty hosed valves.

Additionally, larger injectors will click louder. It essentially has to do witht he size of the pin inside slapping too and from based on the +GND switching. For instance my 30# injectors are exponentially louder than my 17# stockers. Both are bosch part numbers. My friends 42# are even louder than my 30#.

You're failing to give me new information here Jon K - if that's what you were trying to do...

[BillionPa]

I wouldn't say it's a lack of oil

that is what he was saying, he then followed with some general information on injector noise levels.

an injector is a solenoid and it moves VERY fast, and if it is "sticky" it will "open" and remain so untill it "closes" at the end of the injection stage, as opposed to opening a hundred times and closing a hundred times.

its a fairly loud noise.

a good way to check is to smell your exhaust, if it smells rank with gasoline its probably a stuck injector.

[BillionPa]

i just thought of something, look under the oil cap.

does it look clean in there, or is there sludge?

[Jon K]

Rustam has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - What is that kik-tik sound? - in the 5 Series BMW forum of Bimmer.Info Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=21599&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
You're not giving me new information here Jon K if that's wha tyou were trying to do... In fact, the first paragraph alludes exactly to what I meant earlier.

Next time, when I need help with clarification on something that only you can cover, I will make sure that I address you specifically...
***************




Rustam, piss off - stop editting your posts, some of us don't know EVERYTHING - maybe you should go of and write some textbooks or something.

E=STFU

[Rustam]

Rustam has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - What is that kik-tik sound? - in the 5 Series BMW forum of Bimmer.Info Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=21599&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
You're not giving me new information here Jon K if that's wha tyou were trying to do... In fact, the first paragraph alludes exactly to what I meant earlier.

Next time, when I need help with clarification on something that only you can cover, I will make sure that I address you specifically...
***************




Rustam, piss off - stop editting your posts, some of us don't know EVERYTHING - maybe you should go of and write some textbooks or something.

E=STFU

Editing of my posts is none of your business - do yourself a favor and concentrate on yours... now if you have something constructive to say go ahead and impress me, otherwise - swallow your own advice...

And like I said - I'll contact you specifically next time I want to be entertained...

[Rustam]

Rustam, piss off - stop editting your posts, some of us don't know EVERYTHING - maybe you should go of and write some textbooks or something.



How exquisite!
Still don't know why you found necessary to quote me earlier...

[Rustam]

Hi guys,
I got a problem on my 92 525i (152,000 Miles) started a weird sound for past few days. Its kinda kit-kit-kit-……. Sound which is very clear audible when idling, and goes on faster with RPM. I tried to hear where its coming from but could not find what is causing it, but its coming form some where at top of engine. Additionally, when I start my engine in morning (when engine is cold) then I don’t get this sound until I drive at least 5 miles(until engine get hot). Can any one of you guys suggest me where should I start looking and what are usual suspects in this kind of symptom?

Thanks a lot
Akhil

perhaps you can ask him:
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showpost.php?p=160367&postcount=1
direct allusion to 0w40 oil and hydraulic lifters...

[bimmerd00d]

If i recall, there's a method to letting the M50 self-adjust its valves properly. Something about starting the motor cold, and letting it idle for 20min. It was in the TIS, and i stumbled across it one day.

[Speeder 553]

that is what he was saying, he then followed with some general information on injector noise levels.

an injector is a solenoid and it moves VERY fast, and if it is "sticky" it will "open" and remain so untill it "closes" at the end of the injection stage, as opposed to opening a hundred times and closing a hundred times.

its a fairly loud noise.

a good way to check is to smell your exhaust, if it smells rank with gasoline its probably a stuck injector.

I've have that ticking sound when I first start it up and then goes away when it warms up. I noticed a gas smell from my exhaust so looks like I have a stuck injector. How much do indy's charge to fix it???

[KenB]

There are as many opinions on what oil to use as there are oils. My experience with heavier oils (10-40 in winter, 15-50 in summer Mobil1) I have not had any lifter noise at all except in winter at cold start and the car has sat for a couple of days, for maybe 5 secs. until oil gets up to the head.

Some people love 0-40 because it flows like water when cold and this is great for cold starts in winter, but (and this is only my guess) if it is like water when cold how much thicker is it physically going to get when it gets hot? The thicker oils cling to parts better and give more of a coating and cushioning on lifters especially in a high mileage engine. Less ticking noise.

I still go by the temp chart for oil in the owners manual. Even though it is old and outdated yada yada...if the oils are better and have extended ranges then the oils that BMW recommends for a 93 engine are also better and should give more than sufficient protection.

[Rustam]

Some people love 0-40 because it flows like water when cold and this is great for cold starts in winter, but (and this is only my guess) if it is like water when cold how much thicker is it physically going to get when it gets hot?



After reading the initial comment in this thread I looked up what oil viscosity numbers meant - 0W40 means that it has viscosity of "0" grade at 0C and viscosity of "40" grade at 100C - temeratures in Celcius scale. So once the engine is warm the oil's viscosity is of grade "40" on the SAE viscosity chart.

So 10w50 and 20w50 have same viscosity "50" when the engine is warm, bt have different viscosities ("10" and "20" respectively) at 0C...

[Jon K]

So wait - you know everything under the sun but had to look up what oil weights mean? Man, I need to read your textbooks hardcore.

[GoldenOne]

reviving this thread a bit, some unanswered questions...

If there is a stuck injector, is it something a moderately knowledgable owner can replace on their own?

If there is a stuck injector, would that pull any codes when you check?

If there is a stuck injector, is there a noticeable loss in power?

If there is a stuck injector, its probably not good to run the engine more then it needs to be, correct?

I have noticed that I have that "kik tik" sound idling, not sure if its the lifters or a stuck injector, and I do noticed I smell a hint of gasoline from exhaust but it is not heavy as I am perceiving from various posts.

[genphreak]

Reviving this thread a bit, some unanswered questions...

Ow. A painful thread to revive.... but we can understand your need :)

If there is a stuck injector, is it something a moderately knowledgable owner can replace on their own? Yes- you have to drop fuel pressure in the line (great time to replace the fuel filter near the fuel tank too if it could need it) pull the injector rail and then connect it all again with the rail free of the manifold. Attach a test tube to the end of each injector and crank the engine a bit (making sure everything is safe to do this of course- beware dangers of fuel and engine turning over)

Measuring the amount of fuel each delivers is not a good idea over such a small sample as some may fire more than others. You really need to connect them to 12V via a push switch and fire them all manually to do this. (to do this there are special devices that fire them an exact amount of time). I'd first crank the engine to view the spray each one gives the first couple of times- (this method is not for measurement- is it just a visual inspection of the spray and confirming if the injector is working). Tape the tubes / beakers or whatever on the ends of the injector and be sure to make sure they don't leak, shatter or fall off and leave fuel everywhere or somehow otherwise burn ur ass or destroy the contents of your engine bay and garage.

Since you are pulling the injectors a good thing to do is have new o-rings for them so that when they go back you can be sure they seal 100%. Why not just buy a service kit for them and replace their internal filters first whilst you are at it? It is a job best done once and these kits are cheap ($6 per injector odd mebbe, can't remember exactly).

If there is a stuck injector, would that pull any codes when you check?

Depends how bad the engine runs really, not sure tho.

If there is a stuck injector, is there a noticeable loss in power? Sure; 1/6 , 1/8 for V8 or 1/12 on a V12.

If there is a stuck injector, its probably not good to run the engine more then it needs to be, correct?

Probably. May not do much tho other than waste engine energy and make for rougher running.

I have noticed that I have that "kik tik" sound idling, not sure if its the lifters or a stuck injector, and I do noticed I smell a hint of gasoline from exhaust but it is not heavy as I am perceiving from various posts.

Is the engine at normal opperating temperature when you sniff ur baby's ass? I wouldn't be doing this myself deliberately, but heh, perhaps we all do it at one point or another I guess... :) nick

[Ausmpower]

I'll bet the "tik" he was getting is because the 0-40w Mobil1 is too thin to allow his lash adjusters to maintain pressure....As in they are bleeding too fast to pump up and eliminate the lash or one has failed and collapsed.

I'd be interested to know how many miles are on his engine.

Ross

[BillionPa]

it could also be the oil pump doing things and transmitting vibration.

if you are going to replace injectors, its best to replace them all so they inject at an even rate. having a new one and 5 old ones is a good way to put unneeded strain on an engine.

there are many things that can cause a clicking noise, find out where its coming from with certainty before determining the course of action.

although getting a good tuneup before that will significantly narrow down the list of problem areas.

[genphreak]

...find out where its coming from with certainty before determining the course of actionToo right. A piece of hose stuck in the ear whilst poking the other end round the engine bay helps one do that pretty smartly. :) nick

[Rustam]

I'll bet the "tik" he was getting is because the 0-40w Mobil1 is too thin to allow his lash adjusters to maintain pressure....As in they are bleeding too fast to pump up and eliminate the lash or one has failed and collapsed.

I'd be interested to know how many miles are on his engine.

Ross

But here is the thing. In 0w40 "0" relates to viscosity at lower temperature - 0 degrees C to be exact. The original poster says that the car does not make the sound when cold, but makes the sound when hot, where the "40" seems to be more appropriate for viscosity since its for the "hot" opeation...

[Ausmpower]

0w-40 Flows like a 0 weight but protects like a 40 weight.

No oil ever gets thicker with heat, if you think it does....well sorry your wrong (basic physics)!

Here in Aus the Ford falcon 4.0 litre engines reacted the same way to mobil1, when cold all was good, but when at proper operating temp the lash adjusters wouldn't pump up resulting in a noisey valve train, sometimes permanently collapsing one or two lash adjusters.

Going back to the reccomended 10w-40 rectified the problem for good.

Also the more miles on a motor the larger the clearences become there for the problem becomes apparent when using thin oil, switching back to a thicker oil removes the problem because the thicker oil doesn't escape from the lash adjusters as fast, allowing them to hold pressure.

Most engines are engineered for a particular oil viscosity range going below the designed viscosity can cause all sorts of problems.

I'd love to know what oil pressure the motor being talked about here is holding at idle once at operating temp and also how many miles are on it.

maybe the owner could chime in and enlighten us about the miles and oil pressure at idle?

[Rustam]

0w-40 Flows like a 0 weight but protects like a 40 weight.

No oil ever gets thicker with heat, if you think it does....well sorry your wrong (basic physics)!



I dont know what you mean by flows like 0 but protects like 40...

The information that I had read tells that the numbers for oil such as "0W40" mean that the viscosity is "0" at 0 degree Celcius and "40" at 100 degrees Celcius.

And "basic physics" don't apply here - the viscosity increases with temperature in this case, which is a bid beyond "basic" physics...

Why don't you look up what the numbers actually mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

look under the "multigrade oil"...

[Ausmpower]

Below is the oil weight specifications used to determin an oils multigrade viscosity index (SAE index)

As you can see the viscosity of ALL oils reduces with heat. Note that the 15w40's viscosity has dropped by a factor of 10 (higher number is thicker).

Viscosity grade___viscosity at 40 °C (cSt)___at 100 °C _____at -15 °C
SAE-30w__________91.3__________________10.8_________39 50
SAE-20W/50______144.8__________________17.8_________5870
SAE-15W/40______114.3__________________14.9_________2940
SAE-10W/30_______72.3__________________10.8_________1900
SAE-5W/30________57.4___________________9.9_________1090
SAE-0W/20________44.4___________________8.3_________690

Now you may understand how using 0w/40 brand X,Y or Z will behave at operating temperature...... IT is ALWAYS THINNER when HOT!!

Not trying to inflame here BTW, just explain it how it is....

Ross

[Rustam]

Below is the oil weight specifications used to determin an oils multigrade viscosity index (SAE index)

As you can see the viscosity of ALL oils reduces with heat. Note that the 15w40's viscosity has dropped by a factor of 10 (higher number is thicker).

Viscosity grad viscosity at 40 °C (cSt) at 100 °C (cSt) at -15 °C
SAE-30 91.3 10.8 3950
SAE-20W/50 144.8 17.8 5870
SAE-15W/40 114.3 14.9 2940
SAE-10W/30 72.3 10.8 1900
SAE-5W/30 57.4 9.9 1090
SAE-0W/20 44.4 8.3 690

Now you may understand how using 0w/40 brand X,Y or Z will behave at operating temperature...... IT is ALWAYS THINNER when HOT!!

Not trying to inflame here BTW, just explain it how it is....

Ross

This does not explain anything. As far as I am concerned it is just some table of random values that you've put in. There is no substantiation whatsoever. Don't expect me to be convinced if you cannot provide come substantiation. An explanation involves substantiation.

Perhaos it is the part with capital letters? Well - that part is certainly not convincing. Single grade maybe...

[Ausmpower]

You really are a "KEYBOARD WORRIER" aren't you??

Here's the link, look at the graph about 1/2 way down and all will be revealed:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/2/7

READ AND WEEP............

Sorry about the graph above looking jumbled but this forum deleted the blank spaces between the numbers.(fixed now!)

[Rustam]

You really are a "KEYBOARD WORRIER" aren't you??

Here's the link, look at the graph about 1/2 way down and all will be revealed:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/2/7

READ AND WEEP............

a popular science article...
yes that will definitely convince me!

[Ausmpower]

Sorry my bad...... Here's the scientific link with how the viscosity is actually measured..... Maybe you'll believe this one.

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=411&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis

[Rustam]

You really are a "KEYBOARD WORRIER" aren't you??

Here's the link, look at the graph about 1/2 way down and all will be revealed:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/2/7

READ AND WEEP............

Sorry about the graph above looking jumbled but this forum deleted the blank spaces between the numbers.(fixed now!)

Well, I have read just before the table and it supported what I've said earlier, literally. And quoting:


For example, SAE-10W/30 has a similar viscosity to the monograde lubricant SAE-30 at 100 °C.

same as my statement that at 100 °C 0w40 has viscosity of grade "40"... -The very article you provided me with!

[Rustam]

Sorry my bad...... Here's the scientific link with how the viscosity is actually measured..... Maybe you'll believe this one.

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=411&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis

Maybe I will maybe I will not.
In any case I am capable of finding articles on my own.
I will ask you for help with articles if I cannot find any when I need help looking.

[Rustam]

Sorry my bad...... Here's the scientific link with how the viscosity is actually measured..... Maybe you'll believe this one.

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=411&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis

And, I have no idea what "my bad" means...

[Ausmpower]

Another link from the aftermarket automotive industry:

http://www.aftermarketbusiness.com/aftermarketbusiness/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=153789

PDF.

[Ausmpower]

Well, I have read just before the table and it supported what I've said earlier, literally. And quoting:



same as my statement that at 100 °C 0w40 has viscosity of grade "40"... -The very article you provided me with!

This just demostrates how little understanding of oil viscorities you seem to have.

The SAE-30 at 100 degrees is thinner (LESS viscous) than the viscority index of the '0' weight at 40 degrees.

GET IT? or am I flogging a dead horse with you????

[Rustam]

This just demostrates how little understanding of oil viscorities you seem to have.

The SAE-30 at 100 degrees is thinner (LESS viscous) than the viscority index of the '0' weight at 40 degrees.

GET IT? or am I flogging a dead horse with you????

If you have problem with my statement you should direct your effort to the writer of the very article you gave me. It says exactly same thing as I said earlier. And quoting again a paraphrase of what I said (now directly under the table in the article you provided at physics.org):


A multigrade oil described as SAE-15W/40, for example, is a grade 15 at low temperatures and a grade 40 at high temperatures.
________

Do you find a need to type with capitals because you imagine it will create bigger impact on my understanding? If you do - then you are mistaken, it simply does not work. But I can tell you what can work. Some actual substantiation. They talk about "polymer enhancers" can you tell me how they work?
________
p.s. "seem" - the word essentially neutralizes any power of sense in the statement above

[Ausmpower]

So you seem to think that for example diff oil, say SAE 90, will thicken when it gets hot..... Correct?

Ah so I should drain my diff when cold as the oil will run out faster as it's cold and thin....... HMM sounds very logical doesn't it?

****The above is in jest (aimed at Rustam) as anyone who has turned a spanner would be aware that hot oil flows faster than cold oil because an oils viscosity drops when heated.****

It is hard to have a combat of wit when Rustam you don't appear to have any...

You are correct the oil would be a 40 weight BUT at higher temeratures it is ACTUALLY around 9.40 weight BUT at 40 degrees it is ACTUALLY a 40 weight.

Do you get it yet?????

[Rustam]

So you seem to think that for example diff oil, say SAE 90, will thicken when it gets hot..... Correct?

Ah so I should drain my diff when cold as the oil will run out faster as it's cold and thin....... HMM sounds very logical doesn't it?

****The above is in jest (aimed at Rustam) as anyone who has turned a spanner would be aware that hot oil flows faster than cold oil because an oils viscosity drops when heated.****

It is hard to have a combat of wit when Rustam you don't appear to have any...

You are correct the oil would be a 40 weight BUT at higher temeratures it is ACTUALLY around 9.40 weight BUT at 40 degrees it is ACTUALLY a 40 weight.

Do you get it yet?????

I am going to rephrase now. You made me look at an article that said exactly same thing as I did. Now if you find necessary to contest my statement then you essentially find necessary to contest the article at physics.org...

[Ausmpower]

If you have problem with my statement you should direct your effort to the writer of the very article you gave me. It says exactly same thing as I said earlier. And quoting again a paraphrase of what I said (now directly under the table in the article you provided at physics.org):


________

Do you find a need to type with capitals because you imagine it will create bigger impact on my understanding? If you do - then you are mistaken, it simply does not work. But I can tell you what can work. Some actual substantiation. They talk about "polymer enhancers" can you tell me how they work?
________
p.s. "seem" - the word essentially neutralizes any power of sense in the statement above

As in you seem to have very little understanding of oil viscosity indexing.

[Rustam]

As in you seem to have very little understanding of oil viscosity indexing.

you can read that p.s. again...

[Ausmpower]

Polymer enhancers in reference to oil:
They are used to increase the shear strength of the oil's film, they actually make the oil film more elastic.

[Rustam]

So you seem to think that for example diff oil, say SAE 90, will thicken when it gets hot..... Correct?



No it is not correct. I don't think that way and it is a totally ridiculous idea. The problem is that I seem to think that way to you - whereas I really do not think that way. How can one imagine that single grade oil becomes thiker with increased temperature?

The issue is with multi grade oil not single grade oil!

Instead of flooding me with articles why don't you read them yourself? At least at the point where it says exactly what I say?

[Rustam]

Polymer enhancers in reference to oil:
They are used to increase the shear strength of the oil's film, they actually make the oil film more elastic.

Consequently this means that they make the oil thicker... If the shear strength is increased then the oil takes longer time to leak out of an orifice.

[Ausmpower]

**** you really are a tool...... Great to see the forums are still full of pillicks like you Rustam.

You are an arrogant, ignorant **** wit. You have little to no Understanding of this topic and it is blatantly obvious you are of dim mind!

Hmm..... I would have liked to hung around and helped a few of you out with technical information (after all i do have 20 years automotive mechanical experience) but not now...... Rustam **** YOU YOU DIM WITTED IGNORAMUS!!

[Rustam]

**** you really are a tool...... Great to see the forums are still full of pillicks like you Rustam.

You are an arrogant, ignorant **** wit. You have little to no Understanding of this topic and it is blatantly obvious you are of dim mind!

Hmm..... I would have liked to hung around and helped a few of you out with technical information (after all i do have 20 years automotive mechanical experience) but not now...... Rustam **** YOU YOU DIM WITTED IGNORAMUS!!

You can have a 100 years of experience as a mechanic - it will hardly give you experience in chemistry or physics. Certainly has not given you an experience with patience...

[Rustam]

**** you really are a tool...... Great to see the forums are still full of pillicks like you Rustam.

You are an arrogant, ignorant **** wit. You have little to no Understanding of this topic and it is blatantly obvious you are of dim mind!

Hmm..... I would have liked to hung around and helped a few of you out with technical information (after all i do have 20 years automotive mechanical experience) but not now...... Rustam **** YOU YOU DIM WITTED IGNORAMUS!!

I am delighted to see you blow your gasket. It makes very clear that you had *zero* substantiation to your words - which I had a good hunch of.

[Rustam]

**** you really are a tool...... Great to see the forums are still full of pillicks like you Rustam.

You are an arrogant, ignorant **** wit. You have little to no Understanding of this topic and it is blatantly obvious you are of dim mind!

Hmm..... I would have liked to hung around and helped a few of you out with technical information (after all i do have 20 years automotive mechanical experience) but not now...... Rustam **** YOU YOU DIM WITTED IGNORAMUS!!

Still a puzzle to me what ticked you off though - blew your wistle seeing the loop you've gotten yourself into?

So now are you leaving the forum just becasue you came across me?
And no one will be able to experience your help just because of me?
This is truly bad for the forum...

[Ausmpower]

Not even going to bother...........

[Ausmpower]

One question Rustam... Do oils get thicker as they get hotter??

Yes or no answer.

[Rustam]

No really YOU WIN!.......... YOU RUSTAM are my and everybody else's HERO.
(****in' looser!!!)

So far you ve been the most expressive of newbies I have encountered...
Win what?

You know, a psychiatrist can help you with pills - to relax...

[Ausmpower]

I'm very relaxed atm....... You didn't answer the question.

[Rustam]

One question Rustam... Do oils get thicker as they get hotter??

Yes or no answer.

No it is not a yes or no answer... simply becasue the question is unclear as to the type of oil - singlegrade or multigrade?

If you promise to relax I'll try answer any of your questions that I can answer...

_________

Now I though I saw a profile there just a short while ago - Ausmpower - a person of 32 years of age working as "parts interpreter"... Where is it now? Why did you suddenly delete it?

[Ausmpower]

So what you're saying is that a multigrade oil actually thickens as it is heated?

[Rustam]

I'm very relaxed atm....... You didn't answer the question.

I wish I knew your name - since you know mine...

I made clear why I did not answer the question - the question is unclear as to what type of oil is being addressed...

[Rustam]

So what you're saying is that a multigrade oil actually thickens as it is heated?

That is what I believed and that is what your article says...

[Ausmpower]

And if so why is there no single oil for all operating temperatures? If as you say multigrades thicken with heat why not produce a 0w90 that could be used in any weather?

[Ausmpower]

You miss the point that the "40 weight" component of the oil in a multigrade oil is only truly a 40 weight at 40 degrees c.

at operating temp (around 60 - 90 C) the oil thins to around the viscosity index of a 10 weight (@40 c).

See where I'm comming from?

[Rustam]

And if so why is there no single oil for all operating temperatures? If as you say multigrades thicken with heat why not produce a 0w90 that could be used in any weather?

I cannot answer this question - I am not a chemical engineer and I never had particular experience in this area. You can address this question at an appropriate site for instance this one:

www.sae.edu

NOW - We are monopolizing this thread with garbage and it will be moved becasue of this into "Off Topic" which it was not to begin with... So if you want to communicate with me, direct the inquiries to my inbox by private messaging...

I am not going to reply here to you unless it has to do with original question...

[Rustam]

You miss the point that the "40 weight" component of the oil in a multigrade oil is only truly a 40 weight at 40 degrees c.

at operating temp (around 60 - 90 C) the oil thins to around the viscosity index of a 10 weight (@40 c).

See where I'm comming from?

I will read the article tomorrow. And then I will continue discussion with you.

Now regarding missing the point - I did not miss the point - wikipedia refers to top grade being reported at 100 degrees C not 40. I am sure the article at physics.org will say same thing.

[Ausmpower]

"Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.

Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.

Very few manufactures recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job. AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40 with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30. Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new 10W-30. Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle.

Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate o f change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown."

Taken from:

http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html

[Ausmpower]

"The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to "real" viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific temperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use."