Question about NOS

[Jay 535i]

My car is a 1990 535 with an auto tranny and 140,000mi on the clock. Will NOS kill it?

[granit_silber]

My car is a 1990 535 with an auto tranny and 140,000mi on the clock. Will NOS kill it?
I bet the M30 can handle it. But I'm not so sure the tranny could handle the instant rush of hp. But heck, what do I know?
-ashley

[dacoyote]

My car is a 1990 535 with an auto tranny and 140,000mi on the clock. Will NOS kill it?

Not if you get ground effects... paint it candy apple green.

:-)

Charles

[Jay 535i]

I bet the M30 can handle it. But I'm not so sure the tranny could handle the instant rush of hp. But heck, what do I know?
-ashley

Yeah, I'd think the drivetrain is more of a concern than the motor. I know the auto tranny in my car didn't appear in more-powerful cars, so it may not be up to the job. That's why I'm asking the pros. :)

Also, is combining NOS with an EAT chip a no-no? The idea of having an extra 50-75hp for 5-15 seconds at a time for just ~$1000 sounds perfect to me.

[DanDombrowski]

I don't think too many people here have run NOS, so you'll get some speculation, but if I were you, I would mabye ask some of the 3 series people or even non-bmw people that have run it.

As great as our cars are, the engine won't last forever, and NOS certainly won't help it. It probably won't kill it outright, but if its your only car, only you can decide if its worth the risk of not having a car.

[Jay 535i]

I don't think too many people here have run NOS, so you'll get some speculation, but if I were you, I would mabye ask some of the 3 series people or even non-bmw people that have run it.

As great as our cars are, the engine won't last forever, and NOS certainly won't help it. It probably won't kill it outright, but if its your only car, only you can decide if its worth the risk of not having a car.

Well, I certainly don't want to kill the car. My understanding is that most engines can handle a few seconds of NOS without any ill effects, but that you could lunch your tranny, driveshafts, etc. if you're not careful. I'll only go ahead if I can get some reassurance that I'll be fine. Otherwise I'll just keep the $1000 in the M5 jar ;)

[632 Regal]

NOS is cool, the main cause of its failures is not enough fuel being delivered with the NOS since that tricks the engine into thinking it has more air you need more fuel to burn ,,, or it will go lean...and that only takes a couple seconds to cause a melt down.

[Jay 535i]

NOS is cool, the main cause of its failures is not enough fuel being delivered with the NOS since that tricks the engine into thinking it has more air you need more fuel to burn ,,, or it will go lean...and that only takes a couple seconds to cause a melt down.

Thanks. Can anyone vouch for whether or not this is a problem with MY car?

[632 Regal]

this is a problem with ALL engines. Have to somehow be able to deliver enough fuel.


Thanks. Can anyone vouch for whether or not this is a problem with MY car?

[DanDombrowski]

I think what he's asking is will his DME and fuel injectors be able to compensate enough to run, say, a 50 shot without modifications, or would he need to upgrade other parts when installing NOS?

If thats what you're asking, well, again, I don't know what to say because I've never run NOS. Out at the track, I've seen a few guys in 325is's running NOS, but they wouldn't divulge how much they were spraying. At the very least, if I were installing NOS, I would run an A/F ratio gauge, so add that to your cost if you're doing a cost estimate on it.

[632 Regal]

All I know is to run it on a fuel injected engine it isnt as simple as adding a carburetor plate and an extra fuel pump with all the other electronics, timing retards and syncronizing issues.

With something like fuel injection, DMEs, a single weak fuel pump, higher compression ratio, lack of racing cams geared towards NOS, A low ratio rear end, weak drive line, its going to be a LOT more involved, say to the point that Jons little air compressor system would seem very simple. Theres also the issue of our largest teeny tiny tires that will simply not hold to the earth with it.

[Jon K]

All I know is to run it on a fuel injected engine it isnt as simple as adding a carburetor plate and an extra fuel pump with all the other electronics, timing retards and syncronizing issues.

With something like fuel injection, DMEs, a single weak fuel pump, higher compression ratio, lack of racing cams geared towards NOS, A low ratio rear end, weak drive line, its going to be a LOT more involved, say to the point that Jons little air compressor system would seem very simple. Theres also the issue of our largest teeny tiny tires that will simply not hold to the earth with it.


I think megasquirt makes a version of their software that will drive the injectors to equate for nitrous oxide, but the issue isn't there... the issue is the install and the system... a dry shot of NOS is a horror story. E36 guys use it a lot and many have blow their intake manifold apart. Thats not the case with the M30, the manifold is aluminum, so something further down the road is going to give out. You would ideally want to run a wet shot (NO2 + Fuel) which is considerably more money than a dry shot. You also need to consider things like bottle warmers, remote openers, lines, fittings, etc... then you need to ask yourself, is it worth the risk for 50 hp for about 4 seconds?

[632 Regal]

Crap it's worse than I thought!


I think megasquirt makes a version of their software that will drive the injectors to equate for nitrous oxide, but the issue isn't there... the issue is the install and the system... a dry shot of NOS is a horror story. E36 guys use it a lot and many have blow their intake manifold apart. Thats not the case with the M30, the manifold is aluminum, so something further down the road is going to give out. You would ideally want to run a wet shot (NO2 + Fuel) which is considerably more money than a dry shot. You also need to consider things like bottle warmers, remote openers, lines, fittings, etc... then you need to ask yourself, is it worth the risk for 50 hp for about 4 seconds?

[Jon K]

It's pretty involved. There exists another issue not many nitrous users are aware of. Just like fuel, nitrous oxide can fall victim to pre-detonation. Often times people get antsy and either fire it by control, or have it rigged to their kickdown switch, and they fire it at low RPM thinking they'll hop off the line faster. Sometimes they get lucky and do. Other times what happens is theres not enough engine vacuum to suck the spray down the intake fully and the heat of the head and such ignite the nitrous oxide pre-detonating, and unlike fuel which will just ping for the most part, nitrous travels back through the intake plenum to the source of the sprayer... often igniting the entire engine bay on fire. But, hey, whatever... if the guy wants to do it, go for it... its not a good idea and honestly if someone were to race me (on a track) and walk away with spray, i'd have no respect for him. I know its power, but around here most people refer to it as p*ssy power, and not in a good way.

I am going to be using nitrous oxide spray on my intercooler to bring temps down dramatically to improve the charge density.

[Jon K]

you know nothing about it Jon K.
Ive ran it on an M20 and had none of the issues you speak of,
bottle warners and all that is bull ****,
nitorus is a very effictive means of cheap power, you can
build a basic Wet shot kit with one fogger nozzle very cheaply.

also you dont need vacum to suck the spray in, at full throttle there
is no manifold vacum anyway and secondly the nitrous comes out
at 1200psi , it doesnt need any help.

with the right fuel mixtures or water injection, ther is no risk
of meltdown or detonation


There's no vacuum at full throttle? The engine reaches atmospheric pressure... but im not talking about that, have you ever put your hand near a throttle body while and engine was WOT? Since you inject by the throttle body, when the butterfly is closed where does the nitrous go? I'll tell ya where it goes...

http://www.crownvic.us/~ronman/z06/z06_5.jpg

Click for NO2 explosion video (http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=814FB22F-D52F-4DDD-8A63-88C253859960&p=0)

[632 Regal]

P.S. N0S is NOT flamable.

[Jon K]

P.S. N0S is NOT flamable.


LOL

[Jon K]

you know nothing about it Jon K.
Ive ran it on an M20 and had none of the issues you speak of,
bottle warners and all that is bull ****,
nitorus is a very effictive means of cheap power, you can
build a basic Wet shot kit with one fogger nozzle very cheaply.

also you dont need vacum to suck the spray in, at full throttle there
is no manifold vacum anyway and secondly the nitrous comes out
at 1200psi , it doesnt need any help.

with the right fuel mixtures or water injection, ther is no risk
of meltdown or detonation


Bottle warmers are to help the gas come to a warmer more stable temperature with constistant pressure. It's also aid to purging the lines. If you spray your car with the TB closed... where do you think the NOS is going to go... 1 vote for idle conrol valve. 1 vote for big fire.

[Jose]

NOS shouldn´t be a problem for any engine as long as it is in good shape, meaning the cilinder compression is still close to std. Doa compression test first because if your engine turns out to have worn piston rings or valve seals, the extra pressure caused by the NOS will leak out of your cilinders causing loss of power instead of increase and possible engine damage. As for meltdown, run a "wet" NOS system with a additional fuel injector for each cilinder and separate high pressure fuel pump and you will be in the clear. Best would be to run the entire NOS set up including the extra fuel injectors by a separate control unit as supplied by NX and Nos nitrous systems. Gains over 80 bhp would be achieved in save modus.

[Jon K]

NOS shouldn´t be a problem for any engine as long as it is in good shape, meaning the cilinder compression is still close to std. Doa compression test first because if your engine turns out to have worn piston rings or valve seals, the extra pressure caused by the NOS will leak out of your cilinders causing loss of power instead of increase and possible engine damage. As for meltdown, run a "wet" NOS system with a additional fuel injector for each cilinder and separate high pressure fuel pump and you will be in the clear. Best would be to run the entire NOS set up including the extra fuel injectors by a separate control unit as supplied by NX and Nos nitrous systems. Gains over 80 bhp would be achieved in save modus.


An extra couple injectors... additional fuel pump, fuel control, fittings and hardware for wet port injection...bottles, openers, gauges, lines, warmers.... save that $1800 and spend it on a blower or turbo for real power.

[Jose]

I agree on this, but some don´t have the patience to save up to 4G´s for the set up . Some just want to see the amazed faces at the traffis lights. If you ask me,keep the nos for the Japanes breed type of cars, not for 3000 pounds Autobahn stormers. For the costs of a turbo/blower set up you could also upgrade to a S38 with S14 pistons and race spec cams, at least in Europe, don´t know about the States though.

[JAlfredPrufrock]

What's the point?

[High Compression II]

Thats the biggest killer using NOS, the lack of fuel at the same time. What happens is the NOS starts to burn the metal parts. Only takes less than a second and the engine is trashed if you have insufficient fuel.

Some NOS kits have their own extra fuel supply to help guard against this........

Other problems with less than perfect engines are bearing/piston/gasget related failures.

I wouldnt recommend NOS for any engine that has a less than perfect rep for head-gasgets/piston/cylinder related issues, You should only consider it if the engine design is virtually bomb-proof, unless you want to spend mega-bucks strengthning/lightening and other preventative work!
Slap on a Turbo, More expensive maybe but much better in the long run!

[632 Regal]

yep and N02 is flamable now too.

[granit_silber]

yep and N02 is flamable now too.
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/n2o/n2oc.htm

From above site

"At room temperature, N2O is quite unreactive with most substances, including alkali metals, halogens, and even ozone. It is therefore widely used as a propellant in aerosol cans in place of the CFCs which can damage the ozone layer. When heated sufficiently, however, N2O decomposes exothermically to N2 and O2.

If this reaction occurs in the combustion chamber of an automobile, 3 moles of gas would be produced from 2 moles, providing an extra boost to the piston, as well as liberating more heat. It also has a number of other benefits. The increased oxygen provides more efficient combustion of fuel, the nitrogen buffers the increased cylinder pressure controlling the combustion, and the latent heat of vaporisation of the N2O reduces the intake temperature. Therefore N2O is occasionally injected into the fuel lines of racing cars to give more power to the engine and to give the car exceptional acceleration."

NO2 is unreactive, however heat seperates the Nitrogen from the Oxygen and the Oxygen is what combusts.
-ashley
BTW that site is all about the discovery of Nos....by a dentist. :D

[DanDombrowski]

I saw that on the news too!

[632 Regal]

Contact of nitrous oxide with aluminum, boron, hydrazine, lithium hydride, phenyllithium, phosphine, sodium, tungsten carbide, hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide, organic peroxides, ammonia, or carbon monoxide may cause violent reactions to occur. <-- Cool!

Nitrous oxide is a non-flammable gas at room temperature.
The National Fire Protection Association has not assigned a flammability rating to nitrous oxide.

1. Flash point: Not applicable.

2. Autoignition temperature: Not applicable.

3. Flammable limits in air: Not applicable.

[granit_silber]

Contact of nitrous oxide with aluminum, boron, hydrazine, lithium hydride, phenyllithium, phosphine, sodium, tungsten carbide, hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide, organic peroxides, ammonia, or carbon monoxide may cause violent reactions to occur. <-- Cool!

Nitrous oxide is a non-flammable gas at room temperature.
The National Fire Protection Association has not assigned a flammability rating to nitrous oxide.

1. Flash point: Not applicable.

2. Autoignition temperature: Not applicable.

3. Flammable limits in air: Not applicable.

Jeff,
You're right! It's not the NO2 that burns, but the O2 that seperates from the NO2 when heat is applied. So therefore, NOS is both flammable and inflammable. :D
-ashley

[632 Regal]

oxygen itself is not flammable it is a very dangerous chemical
because it causes any fuel in can react with any fuel in its presence.
When high pressure oxygen is used extreme care must be taken so that it
does not come in contact with any fuels or it will cause an explosion

so neither Oxygen or nitrous Oxide are flammable by themselves...:D


Jeff,
You're right! It's not the NO2 that burns, but the O2 that seperates from the NO2 when heat is applied. So therefore, NOS is both flammable and inflammable. :D
-ashley

[Jon K]

oxygen itself is not flammable it is a very dangerous chemical
because it causes any fuel in can react with any fuel in its presence.
When high pressure oxygen is used extreme care must be taken so that it
does not come in contact with any fuels or it will cause an explosion

so neither Oxygen or nitrous Oxide are flammable by themselves...:D


Yes, but that's like saying a bullet doesn't kill, but the a gun does... obviously anyone using nitrous oxide is going to be putting it in the way of oxygen, sulfurs, and fuels...

[632 Regal]

Yes, but that's like saying a bullet doesn't kill, but the a gun does... obviously anyone using nitrous oxide is going to be putting it in the way of oxygen, sulfurs, and fuels... Exactly...

All I said was Nitrous is non flamable.

You could charge a roll cage with it and smack the thing around a telephone pole and it wouldnt explode.

[ryan roopnarine]

here dog
comeon dog
lets get on down to
telegraph rooooaadddd
rriiiighhhttt noowwwww
gettt a gooood deeeeaaall

woof!

[granit_silber]

Exactly...

All I said was Nitrous is non flamable.

You could charge a roll cage with it and smack the thing around a telephone pole and it wouldnt explode.

After reading your response I googled "oxygen flammability" and that brought me to a Department of Energy website. In reading the material I've learned that oxygen is an oxidier but not a fuel. And that combustion requires a fuel to react with an oxidizing agent to create the chemical reaction resulting in fire. And because oxygen doesn't react with oxygen it's not considered flammable.

Here's where I get confused; isn't the fuel that's stored in the big main tank, the fuel sends the space shuttle into orbit, liquid O2.

Guess this is why my degrees are in music and not chemistry. :)
-ashley

[hdaemon]

Here's where I get confused; isn't the fuel that's stored in the big main tank, the fuel sends the space shuttle into orbit, liquid O2.


There are actually two sets of tanks. One containing liquid O2, the other containing liquid hydrogen. The hydrogen is actually the fuel, but the O2 is required as an oxidizer to get it to burn.

[granit_silber]

There are actually two sets of tanks. One containing liquid O2, the other containing liquid hydrogen. The hydrogen is actually the fuel, but the O2 is required as an oxidizer to get it to burn.
Daemon,

Thanks! All I ever heard as a kid was liquid O2 liquid O2. This stuff is starting to make sense now.

-ashley

[DanDombrowski]

Well Ashley,

No, the fuel isn't liquid O2. The oxidizer is 02. The Fuel is Hydrogen. Unfortunately, I don't know what I can and can't say beyond that (as far as classified stuff). I'd like to tell you what project I'm working on too, but I can't say that either, sorry.

Your car is looking good!

[Jon K]

So yeah, back on topic, nitrous isn't the best on these motors, for you'd have to spend a considerable amount of money to make it save and reliable, and with that money you might as well save up for a real modification ;)