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Thread: Motronic - long, & not for the uninitiated.

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    West Palm Beach, South Florida
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    1,011

    Default

    damn, that thing must have been SLOW. My 240 is a gas sedan, and I didn't think it got any worse than that. A diesel wagon? I guess it don't matter when you're on the clock, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by winfred
    i use to be a parts runner for a euro shop a long time ago and the shop car was a 240 diesel volvo wagon with a 4 speed od stick, oh that was fun painting a tailgaters hood and grill black, it's that bosch ve injection pump (same as 524 td) lotsa power lotsa smoke at high rpm 4-5k, turbos with this pump are even better
    93 525i / 01 330Ci / 98 Camry / 91 Volvo 240 / 99 Jeep GC

  2. #22
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    Jan 2004
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    4,150

    Default Also wideband o2 sensors enable more power output as well as better

    emissions since the monitor a wider range more accurately from 11 to 1 all the way up to straight air.. they are able to control wide open throttle and keep it exactly at the required ratio for maximum power instead of having to go strictly off the map which may or may not take into consideration small faults or changes that affect the overall fuel ratio such as vacum leaks etc... the wide band will allow for these corrections.. Also on the newer direct injection gas engines that are coming out, they will run stratified charge and wide band is the only way they can accurately measure the ratios when they get that lean... It looks like its a win win deal to me except for the cost of the wide band sensors compared to the old 1,2,3 or 4 wire sensors...






    QUOTE=Robin-535im]I'm at robin(nospam).ritter@ngc.com w/o the (nospam)[/QUOTE]

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Toronto, CANADA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin-535im
    So there is a timing correction map that retards the timing set by the PT map by looking up the inlet air and head temperatures... Is that adaptive or programmed in ROM?
    It's programmed in ROM

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin-535im
    Also - the WOT map trimmed by the accumulated pulse duration offset map from the lambda control just like the PT map. So all you have to do is program the WOT map higher by the ratio you want the WOT a/f ratio higher than the PT ratio? I.e., if your WOT fuel map is 10% richer than the PT map, the car will still run 10% richer at WOT even after the trim map is applied, right?

    Good info!
    Yes that is correct. Now I guess everyone here is going to start making their own chips.

  4. #24
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    Jan 2004
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    Default

    Mark....I think you are safe....LOL.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Toronto, CANADA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill R.
    emissions since the monitor a wider range more accurately from 11 to 1 all the way up to straight air.. they are able to control wide open throttle and keep it exactly at the required ratio for maximum power instead of having to go strictly off the map which may or may not take into consideration small faults or changes that affect the overall fuel ratio such as vacum leaks etc... the wide band will allow for these corrections.. Also on the newer direct injection gas engines that are coming out, they will run stratified charge and wide band is the only way they can accurately measure the ratios when they get that lean... It looks like its a win win deal to me except for the cost of the wide band sensors compared to the old 1,2,3 or 4 wire sensors...

    Wideband sensors are actually getting quite cheap now. I think you can get a New Beetle sensor for around $50 USD and I have bought a few wideband sensors in Canada (from NAPA) for around $120 Canadian. Sorry I can't tell you what I'm doing with them yet.

    Mark

  6. #26
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    Dec 2003
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    1,640

    Default I don't think you have to worry about that Mark

    Bellevue WA
    90 535iM - not much stock remains. 3.7 liters, ported head, cammed, 3.73 diffy, M5 brakes, MAFed, yadda yadda yadda
    86 Porsche 951 - Track Toy

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    1,640

    Default haha...our "backup" parts runner was a Luv diesel (more)

    Dead slow. Fun to drive though. People'd get on yer ass and you'd just put the throttle to the floor. Thing would dump a soot cloud equal to a Navy destroyer. Best was when the abusing assrider was pinched behind you and had nowhere to go. They just had to sit there and suck fumes till traffic opened up.

    Was much more entertaining at times then zooming around in the Turbo Saabs on the lot.

    I seem to recalll those diesel 240s could drop quite a cloud as well. We had some of those but I think the Isuzu was even better. Now, I did really like the Volvo 760 Turbo Diesels...great highway car!

    Jeff
    Bellevue WA
    90 535iM - not much stock remains. 3.7 liters, ported head, cammed, 3.73 diffy, M5 brakes, MAFed, yadda yadda yadda
    86 Porsche 951 - Track Toy

  8. #28
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    Jan 2004
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    1,171

    Default not a lot of secrets out there Mark

    ...yes WBO2's are becoming quite common not only on production cars but in the tuner market. No mystery as they bring much more to the table which ties into a discussion previously about using stock NA engine management even with tweaked air/fuel and timing maps on boosted engines....where a WBO2 and either stand alone or piggy back engine management shines. Using a stock 02 sensor and say Autometer A/F gauge for insight is playing with fire unless you REALLY know what you are doing. Unless you have a way to tune the A/F ratio like with a S AFC or another controller of some sort it's just a lights parade. When you do have a signal conditioner for the MAP you can tune it for any open loop conditions. It doesn't do anything in closed loop because it's going to work to be as close to the 02 sensor cross over point of 14.7:1 as possible. This makes sense because in closed loop you are not loading the engine so even boosted it would be just fine to be tuned to 14.7:1
    The contradiction is...understanding that a standard 02 sensor even heated 4 wire ones are only accurate in a VERY fine range around 14.7:1 and either side of that is less accurate in a semi-parabolic trend toward inaccurate the further they get from the cross over of 14.7:1

    All the stock primary 02 sensor does is tell the DME 0 or 1, that's it. It's a discrete sensor that tells the DME iteratively if it's rich or lean.

    So with the A/F gauge and stock 02 sensor all you can do is tune it to the green and hope it's close. Not to rich and not too lean. Even then an older sensor will be less accurate and even that changes with temp of the sensor.

    Heated ones are just as inaccurate, but respond quicker.

    Solution is to get an inexpensive wide band 02 sensor controller and install that. Then you'll have a real WB02 sensor and controller for under $400.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    1,235

    Default Or perhaps calling their favorite chip maker...

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD
    Yes that is correct. Now I guess everyone here is going to start making their own chips.

    ... to ask him if they can buy a specially tuned chip just for their car.
    Robin

    72 Chevy K10
    01 E39 M5

  10. #30
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    Jan 2004
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    1,171

    Default

    you may have made that statement rhetorically Robin...hehe. Just not cost effective for Mark or the buyer. Mark will tell you first hand, like most business big or small...its a numbers game. Because of the huge development cost...time mostly...laborious trial and error in large measure...in particular for a custom giddy up...no ROI. Would be cheaper to purchase a stand alone and do your own programming.

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