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Thread: 5hp18 -> 5hp30

  1. #11
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    Are you aware that the 5HP30 is a 34kg heavier than the 5HP18?

    B40 is 282HP/400Nm. The B44 had more and was released with 5HP24 in E38 and E39. @95kg, HP24 won't upset weight distribution so much. (E34 540ia has stiffer springs because of the HP30's weight), it takes 440Nm stock and the extra 20kg may just drop the front an acceptable amount instead of slamming it

    HP24 hasn't been done before either AFAIK. Have you considered using one? 14kg less means you will accelerate and stop (a little) quicker too.

    B19 should bolt up fine to any B40/B44, and you would get a major improvement: the superb selectronic shifter (may be simple to retrofit if you already have the trans connected). Also easier/cheaper to find. So long as using it does not require a CANBUS network on board, you should be fine using this one.

    I can imagine a lot of people would be keen on this upgrade for the selectronic alone- it'd make driving an e34 auto better than driving an E39.
    Last edited by genphreak; 12-17-2018 at 08:14 AM.

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  2. #12

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    5HP24 is a CANBUS exclusive box. It has never been released for CAN + ADS cars like the E34.

    I am not too worried about that weight. I already have stiffer springs on the front from when I replaced my shocks in 2017.

    Also, this is not a daily driver. If I do the fit on the M60B30 engine and I see that for some reason, the driveability suffers.. I either immediately build an M60B35 (M62 3.5 internals) block or I upgrade to M60B44 (4.0 + 4.4 internals).

    Another reason why I won't use the 5HP24, is that I think I can safely build a 5HP30 that could handle 600Nm. With the 5HP24, that 440Nm is probably the limit. Give or take a few safety %%%.

    I totally don't care about the electronic shift knob. Real fancy, I have it in my daily E39 528i but I rarely use it. The E34 I am building will be for cruising and long distances. Reason why I put all this powertrain into it, is just "because I can".

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank87 View Post
    Reason why I put all this powertrain into it, is just "because I can".
    All very understandable. Doing a later trans would not make it simpler in any way.
    EDIT: Here are some dangerous ideas. Before trying, it would be important to ascertain a few things before attempting the newer, more modern trans

    1. If it is possible to ignore the CANBUS connections and use the 5HP24 EGS module, or
    2. If the trans control module (computer) on a 5HP18 or 5HP30 can run a 5HP24

    However, what works in your favour is that the first of the e38 and e39 V8s (up to '98) had the Bosch EGS w the early 88 pin black connector as used in e34. The persisted until way past 2000 with the 88pin, IIRC. After that the EGS moved to a more CAN friendly 134 pin, 5 plug blue connector. So 5HP24 from an early e38 or e39 (24 00 1 423 068) would be easiest to try to adapt. From the repair manuals of the early 5HP24, we can see they have a 16 pin connector that seems to have very similar functions to those on 5HP18/30 (I haven't checked everything), so it might even be that you could run it using the older e34 EGS.

    http://www.akpp-ivanovo.ru/wp-conten...5HP24-diag.pdf

    Think I'm ? Read on...

    e34, e39 and e38 M60/M62 were all made with the 5HP30 box. That means the various EGS versions in those cars worked with it. Each had a different revision- 9.20, 9.22 and 9.22.1. If a new EGS can work with older transmissions, why would the 5HP24 not work with an older EGS too? Or for that matter, one programmed for a 5HP18? Sure, shift points will be different, you won't get steptronic using an older EGS, etc. To get it driving may just be as simple as using an e34 B30 or B40 EGS on a 5HP24!

    And if any 5HP30 can handle all the steptronic commands, and a newer one work with an old EGS, why would the 5HP24 not do the same?

    Over time the connectors change, but the hydraulic design of these boxes is based on the previous generations, and the solenoids etc too. So it may well be possible to fit many later kinds of transmissions by simply modifying the EGS to trans connector cable and evaluating and/or re-programming shift point and/or other minor differences. However around now I expect you to be shouting EGS and Trans are always produced in a known, engineered, combination!! And you'd be dead right.

    To really know for sure, we need to know the differences between a 5HP18 (ZF part: 1056.000.088) and the first 5HP24 (ZF part 1058.000.003). And it'd be nice to know how the last 5hp24 1058.000.022 differed from that too. Also the 5HP30 from the early e39 1055.000.026 and the e34 version: 1055.000.010)

    Note: CANBUS is seldom used for engine to transmission connections as it is a common network used by many modules. This is because it is unreliable- messages can get jumbled up/delayed. It really shouldn't be used to handle time critical communications between any control or safety-related components, inc. all drive-line functions- however I BMW use it to feed drive data to the EGS, and also implemented a CANBUS kick down switch. It may have an unused pin for physical kick-down switch- we'd need to look at the pin-outs.

    Okay, so there is a feed of data from the ECU and speed sensors that a later EGS uses to make gear selection decisions. So getting a later EGS to work without implementing a minimal CAN in your e34 may be impossible (I am encouraged however as early e31, e38 and e39 production were all 'CAN 50' cars- they seem to be barely 'CAN' really, you know- they seem sort of 'lightly rigged'. i.e. e38 and e39 new models implemented CAN in the body electronics and some without OBDII, or in the case of the steptronic E31, to add an OBDII port for regulatory requirements. It doesn't mean the CAN does very much at all with the driveline.

    Anyhow, going this route instead, ie fitting the EGS from a CAN-50 or CAN-60 car into e34, you'd need to check the wires that link to the ECU, mostly they link in the same way as they always have- albeit with a different plug- but you need to consider the differences. The following docs are a good place to see how all these EGS's work:

    Regardless of what you end up doing, you might like some reference docs
    https://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/BMW_Tr...damental_1.pdf
    https://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/BMW_Tr...damental_2.pdf
    http://www.thejagwrangler.com/upload...on_control.pdf

    Transmission Control system versions (EGS)
    5HP18/A5S310Z M30B30 '93 GS 7.3 (>'94: 7.32)
    5HP24/A5S440Z M62B35/B44 GS 8.55 'Basic ECU' (88 pin black) 24 60 1 423 044 and 24601423159* these are likely CANBUS 2.0A
    (>98: GS 8.60.2, 134 pin blue (TU engines), likely CANBUS 2.0B)
    5HP30/A5S560Z M60B40 (88 pin black, GS 9.2 24 60 1 422 478, GS 9.22 24 60 1 422 022 - GS 9.22 came around the same time as EWS- not sure if this is the only difference)
    (>'94: GS 9.22.1 and all M62/M73, 134-pin blue, likely CANBUS 2.0B)

    All produced >'98 use the 134-pin blue connector, which accepts 3 separate plugs (up to 5 as 2 aren't used). Perhaps one for engine, one for trans and one for body. Anyway, there is even (some) hope that your current EGS could run a 5hp24 from an early e39 540!

    It certainly looks like any 5HP30 (early EH version 24 00 1 422 477, from early e38 and e39 would fit a e34 and work with the older 540i EGS (9.2). There are part number differences in the ETK, the question is just what do these differences mean exactly? A connector or harness difference? A valve? A check-ball or a ratio? ZF should be able to tell us.

    Worse still, still thinking along these lines, it would not be impossible to put an 8 speeder in? Without a doubt, the first person to do that will open a world of old-schooling BMW mods! The economy to be gleaned from early cars running the latest 8 speed/auto clutch transmissions would be most interesting to compare to the new ones ;-)

    * Beware there are more parts than just these, you may need to check with someone knowledgeable about the differences.
    ** Recent CAN protocols are finally more advanced, (eg. they share error correction/prioritisation of data) and some finally have a little security/authentication (finally). You can think of the difference to be a bit like the difference between TCP/IP and UDP.
    Last edited by genphreak; 01-05-2019 at 09:52 AM.

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  4. #14

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    Reason why a 5HP24 won't run off a 5HP18 or 5HP30 loom and EGS, is because the number of solenoids and solenoid control per gear is different. Also, the 5HP24 is an all-clutch box while the 5HP18 has a brake band.

    In theory, it would be possible to experiment with a 5HP24 "88 pin" version. Box + loom + EGS. Let's just assume someone can disable the anti-theft on that 5HP24 EGS. The first problems I see arise are:
    - Getting that steptronic 5HP24 EGS to read my PRND432 positions
    - Getting that more modern 5HP24 EGS to read my ABS signals (it needs to know for shifting)
    I am not too worried about DME / engine signals.

    Let's stay rational for a minute, for the 35 kilo's I would save with a 5HP24, would I really want to go through all that retrofit stuff? A 4.4 engine with a 4.0 intake (I have that ready) and a 4.0 throttle body (I have that ready) and a 4.4 throttle body valve (I will get that) and a complete stainless steel exhaust with high flow cats (I will get that).... This engine I will make, will do 300+/- power and 450+Nm.. no problem.

    Add to that the incredible Nm on the 5HP30 and I see no reason why to go for the 5HP24. Also, the 5HP24 is rated for 440Nm so lets say it can take 480-500, You are still going awfully close to that with a 4.4 tuned engine.

    Remember, a 5HP30 is BOLT ON to an M60B30. HOW it will shift, HOW it will feel.. running a converter with a stall speed for a 4.0 on a 3.0... remains to be seen.. but the idea itself, is 100% solid.

    Just general info, the little differences between various serial numbers of a certain box, is often found in the valvebody. Updated channel plate, updated gasket type, updated pistons/springs. Sometimes, like the 5HP18 and 5HP30, clutch pack size also differs.

    There is nothing wrong with your idea of a 5HP24 on an E34, E31 or E32 but my goal is building a very tough gearbox operating under a relatively light load. Those kilo's, good point... They are basically half of an extra passenger. But, as said before, my long term plan is a 4.4 M60 with:
    - 4.0 Manifold, throttle, 4.4 throttle valve
    - Stainless steel exhaust, high flow cats
    - Chip / engine remap based on the above, nothing big, not expecting 100 HP here, more like 10 and a smooth running engine.

    The only absolutely awesome plan I see happening, is a bellhouse adapter for the M30 engine. Since the 5HP24 has a detachable bellhouse, one could manufacture an M30 adapter and convert an M30 BMW to a 5 speed automatic. I see this as an excellent project. May be a bit tricky to get it to run electronically but if I had an M30B35 or converted an M30 to M106 turbo 3.5, I would go for it.

  5. #15
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    Awesome info there, thank you for sharing your deliberations. Agreed, 5HP24 will need at least a later type EGS module.

    And certainly your project will need an 5HP30 in the long run. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once you progress, as 5HP30 comes from many later cars, so it is possibly you will get one from an E38/E39 and be able to make some checks? Or even
    an X5 (if that one really fits), it seems 5HP30 from all these can work with e34 and e39 EGS. Though this needs to be checked physically.

    My suspicion is that the e34 (ADS interface, non CANBUS) ABS, EGS and ECM collect the required drivetrain data, eg wheel and throttle speed information as this is used to implement ATSC (on a 540 and other ATSC
    cars), but not throttle (E34 built with ATSC+T may implement it by closing the injector valve timing), perhaps M5 with fly by wire does. My hope is that the information these collect is enough for late GS 9.20/9.22 equipped ECU to work the steptronic features as per e39 540i.

    If so, to retrofit ZF's 5AS steptronic transmissions, it may only be necessary to implement an e39 fly by wire throttle setup and/or CAN throttle position sensor, and of course it would at least require CANBUS twisted pair between the 9.22 EGS, e39 throttle sensor, kickdown switch. I do not think this is hard to do. The ABS sensor is at one end of the CANBUS and is used to terminate one end of the network. Without an e39 ABS sensor, it will just require fitting a 120 ohm resistor between the yellow/black and yellow/brown Twisted Pair. It may be worth studying the OBDII E31 840ci ETM/TIS for more clues- or alone early 1995 E38 and <10/1996 E39. I do not know which module contains the termination resistor for the other end, it is likely to be in the EGS, ECM or the cluster. My guess is the cluster, so to setup a CANBUS between an ad-hoc bunch of e31/8/9 modules could take two resistors, one at each end. I totally agree, the greatest candidate for a 5AS auto transmission upgrade is the 535i/735i, as once M30B35 is done, B34, B33, B32,B28, as well as B20
    powered cars, all would be in scope for anyone to do. I think however that later ECU may be a requirement to implement an early steptronic EGS, so M50/M52 powered e34s would be the ones to do after M60.

    It would however be truly great to open up 5HP24 upgrades as a DIY mod for any 6 cylinder E34, E32, E31, E30 E28, E24, E21, E12, E9, E3- that's a lot of BMWs that need new gearboxes that are freed up from all those 'naughties era' models going to a premature death right now.  Standard/manual transmissions are not always the right option for people with older cars experiencing automatic trans issues, after all.

    Re EWS and DWA, I am not aware of the EGS being involved in the key exchange from the transponder controller, but it may operate the gear knob lock solenoid on the shifter. On E39 this solenoid has a two pin connector (simple 12V control) which does not
    appear to connect to CAN module in the shifter switch. I just looked at an early e39 shiftronic shifter assembly I have here - it uses the physical selector cable to select gears on the transmission directly, and uses two microswitches to implement the up/down side. Both, along with the main swiper switch talk to the EGS via a6 pin connector.

    Not sure if this helps shed any light for you, but the closer I look, the more it appears possible!

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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by genphreak View Post
    Awesome info there, thank you for sharing your deliberations. Agreed, 5HP24 will need at least a later type EGS module.

    And certainly your project will need an 5HP30 in the long run. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once you progress, as 5HP30 comes from many later cars, so it is possibly you will get one from an E38/E39 and be able to make some checks? Or even
    an X5 (if that one really fits), it seems 5HP30 from all these can work with e34 and e39 EGS. Though this needs to be checked physically.

    My suspicion is that the e34 (ADS interface, non CANBUS) ABS, EGS and ECM collect the required drivetrain data, eg wheel and throttle speed information as this is used to implement ATSC (on a 540 and other ATSC
    cars), but not throttle (E34 built with ATSC+T may implement it by closing the injector valve timing), perhaps M5 with fly by wire does. My hope is that the information these collect is enough for late GS 9.20/9.22 equipped ECU to work the steptronic features as per e39 540i.

    If so, to retrofit ZF's 5AS steptronic transmissions, it may only be necessary to implement an e39 fly by wire throttle setup and/or CAN throttle position sensor, and of course it would at least require CANBUS twisted pair between the 9.22 EGS, e39 throttle sensor, kickdown switch. I do not think this is hard to do. The ABS sensor is at one end of the CANBUS and is used to terminate one end of the network. Without an e39 ABS sensor, it will just require fitting a 120 ohm resistor between the yellow/black and yellow/brown Twisted Pair. It may be worth studying the OBDII E31 840ci ETM/TIS for more clues- or alone early 1995 E38 and <10/1996 E39. I do not know which module contains the termination resistor for the other end, it is likely to be in the EGS, ECM or the cluster. My guess is the cluster, so to setup a CANBUS between an ad-hoc bunch of e31/8/9 modules could take two resistors, one at each end. I totally agree, the greatest candidate for a 5AS auto transmission upgrade is the 535i/735i, as once M30B35 is done, B34, B33, B32,B28, as well as B20
    powered cars, all would be in scope for anyone to do. I think however that later ECU may be a requirement to implement an early steptronic EGS, so M50/M52 powered e34s would be the ones to do after M60.

    It would however be truly great to open up 5HP24 upgrades as a DIY mod for any 6 cylinder E34, E32, E31, E30 E28, E24, E21, E12, E9, E3- that's a lot of BMWs that need new gearboxes that are freed up from all those 'naughties era' models going to a premature death right now.  Standard/manual transmissions are not always the right option for people with older cars experiencing automatic trans issues, after all.

    Re EWS and DWA, I am not aware of the EGS being involved in the key exchange from the transponder controller, but it may operate the gear knob lock solenoid on the shifter. On E39 this solenoid has a two pin connector (simple 12V control) which does not
    appear to connect to CAN module in the shifter switch. I just looked at an early e39 shiftronic shifter assembly I have here - it uses the physical selector cable to select gears on the transmission directly, and uses two microswitches to implement the up/down side. Both, along with the main swiper switch talk to the EGS via a6 pin connector.

    Not sure if this helps shed any light for you, but the closer I look, the more it appears possible!
    The X5 was never delivered with a 5HP30. Only the 4.0 V8 and 5.4 V12. Some say there are a few 3.5 and 4.4 V8 with 5HP30 RIGHT before 5HP24 became available.

    ASC on the E34 actuates a throttle valve that does not open airflow but closes it. It is in front of the actual throttle valve in the cornering piece.

    If you would want steptronic on an E34, this would not nesscarily be a problem. Steptronic is simply some software coding in the gearbox that says:
    "If position S is selected, signal on PIN x means upshift, signal on PIN Y means downshift." And all other regular "S" mode software planning is in effect.

    So if I wanted steptronic, i'd take a steptronic 5HP30 EPROM and a standard 5HP30 EPROM. Then compare (assuming I can get proper code from it with somekind of software) the software programming. If you can discover the exact steptronic part, you may be able to transplant the coding to your old 5HP30 EGS. You then hook up a 12v signal yourself to the pins that the code uses.

    You are for some reason fascinated by the 5HP24 . To get this more modern box to work, you will need the 88 pin setup and you will need to reprogram a 5HP18 / 5HP30 EGS/AGS. Basically, the 5HP18/5HP30 EGS AGS can already communicate with all other modules and get all required signals legitimately. That part, the "reading" part where the EGS/AGS reads off data, you keep that intact. Then you have the actual actuation / shift part of the programming. You literally replace the 5HP18/5HP30 SHIFT programming with 5HP24 programming. This is in theory the way to go. So if a 5HP18 would actuate solenoids 1 and 2 to shift from 2nd to 3 and the 5HP24 would actuale its 4th 5th and 6th solenoid, you would literally modify the programming that way including the proper wiring actuation because the loom from EGS to 5HP24 differs from 5HP18 and 5HP30. Mechanically a 5HP24 will fit any M60/M62 and probably also M70/M73. It is pure a programming and actuation issue.

    If there was someone who knows what software can be used with an EPROM reader to see the coding of the EGS/AGS in normal script language instead of "!@#$DHI@#HRE@!", I would get into it immediately.

    btw, Getting a 5HP24 to fit would need a custom bellhousing or a 4HP22 / 4HP24 bellhousing needs to be modified to fit the 5HP24 box. Then HOPEFULLY, the 5HP24 converter will fit with the right clearances. This way, M20 and M30 engines could take a 5HP24. Both the 4HP and the 5HP24 boxes have detachable bells.

  7. #17
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    Hmmm. More good grease for the mill...

    Oh yes, that flappy valve in the bend... that is what it is for- stopping us vapourising our rear brake shoes with the engine, every time we turn a corner and hit the gas!

    Yes, perhaps I am fascinated by 5HP24 as a possibility the older cars. No-one has done it yet, and this update would brings a lot of benefits to older 6 cylinder models without extra weight:
    - Changes the feel of a car massively. And you are right, it is not steptronic that makes the difference, but the program and change speed is radically improved. Driving an auto M54/M56 is totally different to the previous 'clutched' boxes. They are far more perceptive, so downshift better, change quicker and the torque converter lockup is in better.
    - Of course it is nice to be able to use steptronic, esp. through corners, and have a more up to date gear lever
    - Amazing economy improvement over any car with a 4AS unit if the bellhousings can be adapted as you are thinking

    If the shift programming in an 5HP18/30 EGS can be re-coded with the data from the 5HP24 EGS, and there are no additionally required data inputs necessary, it would mean no CANBUS or other retrofitting, and in that case, woot! Job done! But if this is so, how come no-one has done it yet?

    To modify the EGS, the best thing is NCSExpert and NCSDummy. These will show and allow collection and disassembly of the code in the various modules and control units, not just the EGS. NCSExpert collects what are called 'trace files' from the target module, and allow you to append parameters within them, however NCSDummy can be used to make the changes in its UI by choosing from known valid parameters in drop-downs, making custom coding easier even if you are just wanting to turn options on and off (simple changes to the binary values 0 and 1), or manipulating hex dumps. Much easier than using generic tools to manipulate the data by hand of course. NCSExpert can be used to re-assemble (compile) these files and re-code a target module when you are done. SSS and DIS allows some re-coding but these are limited as they are designed for the dealer techs, not modders. They don't allow the options NCS expert was written to do. IIRC, ECU and EGS data programming maps and shift program data) can be done by modifying the (Hexdecimal) DATEN files.

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-of-NCS-Expert

    I will take a look and see what I can find out...

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