OT Ever see the doccumentary Sicko?

[ryan roopnarine]

1. that document shows that the average isn't $3k for a family, even in the cheapest state, it is about 6.4k with work sponsorship. 6.4k/20k is a big deal, keeping in mind that most jobs that pay 20k/yr aren't going to sponsor a family sized ( 1+ 2) health insurance plan.


2. the hospitals weren't "full" and everyone understands that. if she wanted something "special", she could have gotten it by driving 170 miles away v. 300. no hospital, anywhere, is too busy to deal with a woman in labor. the elective border crossing and likely 6 hour drive (i haven't seen a speed limit in canada that is higher than 100-110km/h) means that she had the time to "wait" to get to a situation more preferrable. as opposed, even, to having a police escort drive her to edmonton. she didn't drive all the way to montana because UHS security told her to get her "reagan lovin' behind" out of (their) hospital.

here's a topical example:

in the event that one of america's brave spacemen are injured before/after launch, they would likely end up at shands hospital, which is in gainesville, florida. in the event that one of them was decapitated, they'd end up at a local hospital. the city that the KSC visitor's complex is in is one "orsino" florida. 160 miles away, if you were driving (i'm sure that they would get a helicopter ride at that point)

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/m...608&panelbtn=2

there are at least 10 major hospitals along the flightpath to gainesville. yet, they would end up here, in the the middle of bfe, 'cause they wanted something special. i doubt that arrangement is because the other hospitals along the way are diametrically opposed to NASA and its aims, or because they are too incompetent to deal with run of the mill medical emergencies.

[repenttokyo]

obstetrics is a really, really bad example to use for overloaded hospital care. I've worked in obstetrics, and while I am in a hotel room in Minneapolis right now, if anyone is interested I can fill you in about why obstetrics wards are overloaded and how hospitals in the US now have to self-insure if they carry an obstetrics ward.

[Jon K]

Ryan you hit the nail on the head - if its more than $3,000 (I wouldn't know, I don't have to raise a family) then it is what it is - there are many reasons for the costs and what not. However, like I said why would a 1 + 2 insurance be required with a $20k/year income? Why is a family depending on a single $20,000 allotment? I could charge $5,000 to my credit card without being able to actually afford it. I could go on a cocaine craze for a month borrowing from landsharks knowing I can't pay it back. I could pop out babies with women non stop knowing I can't support them. But I don't do any of these things. I personally feel that the majority of americans who cannot afford to get "proper" care are ones who very well could have had it if they didn't make decisions they did. It wasn't like they hit 18 and SURPRISE YOU NEED MONEY! I mean what the hell - every boys aspiration is that posted with a 10 car garage full of Ferrari and Lamborghini, but even when I was 10 I knew it took hard work to get anything. I am not trying to sound insensitive, etc., but seriously, am I supposed to include the 21 year olds with 5 children and minimum wage, no schooling, multiple past "partners" and no obvious concern for their or their childrens future into consideration? No, they are not to be excluded from society and I am in firm belief that before the government comes our creator's decision as to how we live, but seriously isn't there a flaw there? You cannot support two children, a wife and a child, or any combination of dependents on $20,000 - don't do it! If you are trying your hardest and your wife and you want to have kids but you only make $20,000 a year, get the wife to get a job - if she doesn't want to work, then she obviously doesn't value a family enough...$40,000 is 2x $20,000. And $40,000 should be able to support any family with a normal lifestyle...

So where is the flaw? Other countries can cross health insurance off on their "thing to pay for" list, and watching the movie only made it more evident to me based on the doctor with the Audi and big money apartment and all his dreams true, that they take it for granted. "Well its sad to see the US has to pay.." yeah it'd be great to have free healthcare, hell it'd be great to have free college but how much is something worth to you if you don't know what it costs? I know it sounds ridiculous - but a life is worth a little more than $3,000... or $6,000 - if I was told that I had to raise $20,000 buy the end of the year or I would fall of the face of the earth, would I argue and say "Yeah but in Europe someone pays that for them." Screw Europe, you're here - don't like it, leave. We could give free healthcare to all of our citizens, but let's take away their freedom - but you can have the freedom back, for $3000 a year, deal? If what our country offers a person is not enough to outweigh the inability to pay for a persons health insurance, then maybe its time that person look for another home?

I don't want to seem argumentative, I just want to express my side of the equation - a person can't afford health insurance for themselves because they can't land a good enough job to support their lifestyle - that says to me they didn't work hard enough in school or are lazy afterward and expected some miracle entity to come support their lifestyle. A person can't afford family health insurance for their wife* and kids says to me that the person shouldn't have started a family when they did, I support life, but use your judgment it's not hard - if you can't afford $2k you sure as hell can't afford $5k.

I guess I am not very sympathetic only because I have been raised mostly by my mother, a high school graduate with no college degree who worked hard and did everything she could to make herself able to afford her lifestyle and family (not to say my step father isn't as supportive, but my mother was widowed and could have really fell on her ass for a long while) - a lot of my friends are shocked to find my mother never went to college and makes what she does - there is no substitution for hard work and the value of a person who is determined to do something and if they can't, they find out how. A lot of people I know, as a recent graduate, are like "WTF I have my degree, where are all the jobs at?!" NEWSFLASH - your graduating doesn't mean **** unless you are able and willing to work hard. I hold a degree in MIS it took me 3 months to find a "good" job - and I have a good work ethic and am very talented in what I do! I couldn't afford to work during school because of distances to things worth working at, so I built ECUs for money during free time - no one taught me how to do that, I was tired of being broke and I figured something out, I broke no records here. I can only imagine how challenging it is for people less fortunate! But just because people are a citizen of this country or hold a degree should not lead them to think they're "entitled" to something. If you want to offer your citizens a free service, everyone knows its being paid for elsewhere. There's no check box on the "Start a Government" form that says "Make everything free" for if there were we'd all be doing it!

[repenttokyo]

some people believe in a social safety net that allows for all people to be taken care of, regardless of their job status, education or financial position. Again, a really big societal difference between americans and canadians,

no one is going to change anyone's fundamental beliefs here - but it is interesting, i suppose, to illustrate them.

[Elekta]

no one is going to be able to take away choice from people who seek it.

The industry is reacting to it currently what with RateMds.com, generic drug availability. When the consumer has choice, the provider has to compete and the system weeds out the weak and in the overall, improves. RateMds is actually doing the job better on the front end then say like snake oil salesman and doctor suer John Edwards on the personal injury back end. It's a croc to make the lack of universal health coverage argument when so many millions that have no coverage at all are still getting adequate or full health care from hospitals for free. If you think the wait is long when you are in the emrgency room for a flu script or shot, think how long it will be when the gov't is running the hospitality. Remember that bureaucracy is static, pursues the status quo, slow to change, rare to ever shrink...and all those elements create the worst efficiency and weakest return on investment or quality of outcome in any working model. Can you imagine the equity of Personal Savings Accounts over Social Security if the competition were allowed? It's insanity.

If you are unable to have choice as even an option, because of your financial capability whether real or imagined, then you should move to where you are comfortable with others making your choices for you. It won't fly to try to bring everyone down to your level, because there's too many that can find the better alternative. It didn't work with dumming down in education, grade inflation and 100% valedictorians. It doesn't work with single payer in health insurance. And it definately doesn't work in socialized health care. If it did, then we'd all move to canada for the best medical care. No one is ferrying across a great lake to get a cavity filled, a tumor removed, or a wellness checkup. People move to nanny states/countries because they are unable or unwilling. Just look at the border between NY and VT and Canada. Zig zag across all three for a couple of days and see for yourself. Bottom line there are more that are willing to work harder, and are resourceful enough to not give in to the entitlement mentality.

Nothing like a little free enterprise to lift the spirit. The glass is always half full people