New M30 turbo option in the works!

[s_ribbens]

Just going through the rough, initial planning phase right now. My shop will do the install but it will be a joint venture with another local shop (which will do all the fab work and be developing the manifold). This project won't get started until this winter most likely but I wanted to see what options people would be interested in seeing. I am waiting to pick up a second motor to rebuild and use for fab work as well as attaining enough funds to do this properly.

The manifold will most likely be a tubular design for a single turbo (though, dual could be a possibility if there is interest). It will definitely be intercooled and have the option of a boost controller and multiple tuning maps.

My personal goal is to run low boost for street with 300-350 whp and have a moderate-high boost setting available for the occasional fun runs.

I will keep everyone updated when this gets underway, but for the time being, please add your commentary in. This will get developed into a retail kit so your input will help everyone get a product they want. Too many of the current offerings are past their time and out-dated.

It will be interesting to balance this project with my race car build.

[Robin-535im]

Options/suggestions...

I think a knock off of the Alpina setup would really put you guys head & shoulder above the rest. Bi-turbo with an optional piston / rod set to go with it, or use it on the stock (9.5 ?) compression. If there was a kit that looked like it was an alpina setup w/o the brand name, I'd buy it.

Stock-looking looks are great too, IMHO. Some of the kits make the engine bay look like Dr. Frakenstein was the mechanic.

Good chip / ECU is important too, obviously. If you could get away with using the existing motronic but swapping out some sensors and programming, all the better.

Last, and most important, dyno your tests! Multiple times, so we know it's not a statistical fluke.

[s_ribbens]

I guess I should rephrase the question then. Do you care what turbo style is mounted to it etc? Obviously it needs to be well sorted out.

[genphreak]

Options/suggestions...

I think a knock off of the Alpina setup would really put you guys head & shoulder above the rest. Bi-turbo with an optional piston / rod set to go with it, or use it on the stock (9.5 ?) compression. If there was a kit that looked like it was an alpina setup w/o the brand name, I'd buy it.

Stock-looking looks are great too, IMHO. Some of the kits make the engine bay look like Dr. Frakenstein was the mechanic.

Good chip / ECU is important too, obviously. If you could get away with using the existing motronic but swapping out some sensors and programming, all the better.

Last, and most important, dyno your tests! Multiple times, so we know it's not a statistical fluke.

I couldn't have put it better. But given that Motronic is waaay out of date and uses that damned AFM, does not include knock sensor, 4 wire lambda (these are a must if you want to use stock compression and in any way raise output to any real extent) and are commercially a good idea so people who don't have the funds to rebuild their stock motors can leave it 9.5:1; buy the kit and possibly blow up the engine up (or just go easy on it) before they opt to do a full rebuild).

I would suggest you make absolute sure these goodies are included and also do it with a Megasquirt (or commercial equivalent but cheap) ECU that offers the owner the ability to tweak and monitor combustion on the fly using a laptop pc or digital displays.

If you do this, you will be using really up to date, proven and yet still economical methods as most of the work has been done but just not brought together on an M30. One thing you should consider is publishing the lot properly, for free. It will benefit many others and as most M30 owners are not rich like e39/e46 owners you will not lose sales rather I would expect you to sell more components- especially those that people have trouble making themselves.

But importantly I'd leave what they buy from me up to them- if they want to make their own good on 'em. Yours just needs to be the best and easy to buy

Defiantely Alpina-esque, make the manifold look real nice, make sure manifold intake goes in via the left side, option of oil canister relocation as per the sweet BMWe34.net kit, intercooler included and defiantely single turbo for cost reasons. Definately a full Motronic delete.

I'd buy this so long as I can have the hard-to-get and lighter parts shipped in a box with instructions and a parts list supplied prior online so I can make sure I get the heavy stuff like the turbo (plus have the choice of what type left to me) and piping locally and not have to chase round for stuff on the week of the install!)

Very interested... Nick

[s_ribbens]

Stock compression is 9.0 to 1 on the stock motor. I haven't decided how much money I can and want to put into the motor build. Initially I am planning on simply refreshing everything with new, stock pieces. From all of my research, the stock motor is more than enough to handle a good amount of boost. ARP head studs are a definite though.

Everything WILL be pretty! The shop that will do the fab work is soley a fab/product development shop. Their first piece looks far better than any production piece I've seen so expect appearances and quality to be top-notch.

It will almost certainly be a single turbo set-up. I have no interest in putting that much money into this nor the added power of a bi-turbo set-up. Intercooler is certainly part of this. I can't imagine doing it without one.

ECU is the biggest item up in the air right now. I'm a bit wary of using a stand-alone for drive-ability reasons. This is my daily driver and I really prefer to keep my race car for fun rather than DD usage. Reliability is VERY important with this project. A piggy-back set-up is being thought through right now.

What power output would you guys like to see?

[Jon K]

The thing is, you will not be making 350 hp on "low boost" unless your low boost is around 15 psi or so. Andrew, a guy nearby, just built his 3.6L M30 with forged everything runing Tec3R standalone a 60-1 turbo and made 400 on high boost...

Why re-invent the wheel? TCD makes a manifold for the M30 that is both strong and conveniently priced. You will see very little if any gain with tubular manifold. If you made an equal length manifold it'd be better but now you're talking about much more money - the average "I have a friend who welds" price on equal lengths are froim $1100 - $2000 alone. Why bother trying to do something like that when TCD already makes a good cast manifold?

I know it doesn't sound too hard in the preliminary thought process but a lot of stuff gets reconsidered when you start bolting things up. I know that during my build (well, two if you count my previous custom supercharger setup) I made many revisions to my original plan that made sense on paper but ended up not being an option. M30 will need oil filter relocated, etc etc. Lots of stuff will seem so simple and then when you go to put it in the car its like "wow the turbo intake pipe hits the motor mount".

Like I said, if I were you and had an M30 which already has numerous manifolds available, I'd simply buy one of those and mate any T3 flanged turbo I wanted to it. Forget biturbo - its worthless unless you want a car that drives like a stock VW 1.8T motor. Sure, two small turbos eliminate any lag but it also means you need two intakes, two exhausts, to flanges, two oil feeds, two drains... get the picture? Additionally, you'd be very hard pressed to get 350whp from a biturbo setup built for "drivability". If you want horsepower, the only way to get there is with a lot of air moving. Andrew is using a T3 or T4 60-1 turbo and is peaking it out - the turbo is at the end of its efficiency. If I had 3.5L and shallow pockets I'd get a Holset H1C - if I had 3.5L and deep pockets I'd get a GT42R. Either way, if you want to hit your 350whp on low boost figure, that's what it's going to take. Also, I know it sounds straight forward saying "it will also be intercooled" but believe you me, there is nothing more pain in the ass than trying to fit an air to air intercooler on an E34 - again, trust me I know.

It's not like you can't be creative - but if there were manifolds for the M50 available under the $1k price I'd do it that way - there isn't a good one available, however.

Just to give you insight on what else you need I will summarize what I've put together:

-SS Stainless manifold bottom mount location
-Custom stainless up pipe to top mount turbo
-42# injectors (originally bought 30#)
-16x11x3.5" front mounted IC (had to delete AC)
-Tial 38mm Wastegate with 8.7 psi spring
-Tial 50mm BOV w/ V-band clamps
-3" custom exhaust
-oil lines and fittings ($)
-Mandrel bent 2.5" plumbing
-Mandrel bent 1.5" plumbing for wastegate atmosphere dump
-Holset H1E Turbocharger (500+ hp capable)
-MegaSquirt standalone ECU built for M50 on GM coil pack wasted spark
-GM coil packs
-Custom MSD ignition wires
-KnockSenseMS to supply knock sensing for my M50 non vanos
-4 Bar map sensor for MS
-Innovate LC-1 Wideband Oxygen Sensor (completely necessary)
-Bunches of silicone couplers, 90 degree, straight, etc
-Tons and tons of time.

I won't add it all up but thats close to $4,000 spent... ontop of the money I spent on my previous supercharger setup and I do all the labor.. imagine what a shop is going to charge.

There's also a commonly accepted fact of the M30 cooling system being prone to failure. With a turbocharged motor and engine temps getting even hotter, that's one more thing to worry about. I'd be replacing that stock gasket with a MLS gasket and doing all new water pump and t-stat. Lots of little things you have to consider. Once you've got the car mechanically built, then you get the joy of tuning it.

[Jon K]

Stock compression is 9.0 to 1 on the stock motor. I haven't decided how much money I can and want to put into the motor build. Initially I am planning on simply refreshing everything with new, stock pieces. From all of my research, the stock motor is more than enough to handle a good amount of boost. ARP head studs are a definite though.

Everything WILL be pretty! The shop that will do the fab work is soley a fab/product development shop. Their first piece looks far better than any production piece I've seen so expect appearances and quality to be top-notch.

It will almost certainly be a single turbo set-up. I have no interest in putting that much money into this nor the added power of a bi-turbo set-up. Intercooler is certainly part of this. I can't imagine doing it without one.

ECU is the biggest item up in the air right now. I'm a bit wary of using a stand-alone for drive-ability reasons. This is my daily driver and I really prefer to keep my race car for fun rather than DD usage. Reliability is VERY important with this project. A piggy-back set-up is being thought through right now.

What power output would you guys like to see?

Thats a very odd way of building a car - asking people what they want to see? I don't really think anyone truly cares - Forget a piggyback system. You talk of drivability and the word piggyback in that statement is like Bob Dole playing professional sports. You either need to chip tune it, which is expensive and the only one who does it is TCD but thats with Marks help. That requires you keep your AFM so you can forget about blowing off. Or, you go standalone... either way you are not going to make "big" power by half-assing the ECU.

Still - this is a bit of a confusing thread because you're asking us what we want to see... but... its not our car. As mentioned earlier, avoid biturbo becuase its a pain, not because it adds power - its no better than a single turbo when it comes to power.

[genphreak]

The split second PSC-0001 is the go if piggybacking and can run the map sensor to delete the AFM. Not soooo simple still, but the turbo will upset the motronic's figures when the mp goes positive. Better to go Megasquirt relaibility is not a problem, availability and price. ANd it does everything you (or others) will want.

RTE head studs are the go.

Check this page, it is one of the best write-ups I know of for factory spec stuff done well. Of course searching this forum will yield plenty of good oil on the subject.

This is an example of what kind of manifold we might just **all** want to buy... You see why we need choice with regards to the setups we use?

The turbo Vidar specifies in his is just way too small for most...

[Jon K]

I dunno guys, there are options available for you... the TCD cast manifold makes great power and is mass produced, but time someone comes up with a tubular manifold and produces it forget cost being reasonable. VS manifolds fetch over $2,000 in the states.

[genphreak]

I dunno guys, there are options available for you... the TCD cast manifold makes great power and is mass produced, but time someone comes up with a tubular manifold and produces it forget cost being reasonable. VS manifolds fetch over $2,000 in the states.

That other scandinavian one form a little while back was the biggest damn manifold I've ever seen in a car. That was filthy.

Here's a 'dirty' way to do the M30.

Dirty cos the turbo is big, the job was cheap. So cheap it was home made but still produced heaps of output. And dirty cos it was on the wrong side.... gotta love it though, next best thing to making your car wings...

And it's Megasquirt.... sweeeet!

Have you seen this/heard of this one before Jon? Familiar turbo?