Book rates: the saga continues

[Jay 535i]

This is a continuation of this thread:

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16530

I was really curious about their "book rates", so I decided to call around, just for fun. I called seven different BMW dealerships in the Toronto area, and asked for a labor quote to:

1. Install a windshield wiper drive rod
2. Install two front turn signal lenses
3. Install a new brake light switch

The quotes below reflect ONLY labor. I provided my own parts. Remember, all these dealers are within 30km of each other.

BMW Autohaus
Wiper rod: 2.5 hours
Turn signal lenses: 2.0 hours
Brake switch: 1.0 hours

Budds' BMW
Wiper rod: 3.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 2.0 hours

Town + Country BMW
Wiper rod: 4.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 1.5 hours

BMW of Mississauga
Wiper rod: 0.8 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 0.5 hours

Maranello BMW
Wiper rod: What the **** is that?
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 0.6 hours

Parkview BMW
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

BMW Toronto (flagship store)
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

At $107/hr, these differences are substantial. $450 seperates the highest quote from the lowest.

This all started when I got IRATE when one dealership told me they were going to charge me 6 hours' labor for 90 minutes' work, because they go "by the book rate". How, then, can five different BMW dealerships within a half-hour drive of one another give five differing quotes (nevermind the two dealerships who couldn't be bothered returning a customer's call)?

Does anyone have an explanation for what's going on here, besides fraud? I wonder if the press would be interested in my story. No doubt these discrepancies bilk BMW customers out of many thousands of dollars every day.

What the **** is going on here, where is this so-called 'book', and why does it seem like no two dealers use the same one?

[Qube]

Thanks for the insight. It pays to shop around. I'm curious though, why just dealers now? Based on my thread and mostly Mark's help...

Bimmersport
1765 Shawson Dr, Unit 13
Mississauga, Ontario
905-670-9200
416-823-2BMW

Autotrend on Broadview
http://www.autotrend.net/

Lakeside Motors at Kennedy and Lawrence

BRUNO! in 'sauga

And for light work, I go to my indy, Willie's Auto (Markham). If that guy were more honest, he'd be out of business.

[Derek A.]

A. When you call up a shop with specific tasks. They know you had it diagnosed someplace else and are totally shopping price. Furthermore - they are at a disadvantage becuase they don't know who made the diagnosis and what the root problems are.

B. There is a program called KSD. Its what the dealers use to look up labor operations. Its based on a measure of time called a FRU. The translation into labor hours varies a bit - as BMW's labor rates is on a sliding scale of difficulty. Rewiring an E65 pays more per hour than a shift knob replacement on an e34.

c. This is customer pay work. There is no standard. The dealer can quote what they want. They may know that its a 15 year old car and to pad the time becuase stuff is going to break. Maybe the guys in the shop aren't familiar with the older cars. Regardless - they can charge what they want.

d. Providing your own parts is another way that the dealer says - this is not worth our time to pursue. Did the guy by the right parts? are they going to break on us? If a part fails do we need to cover is under our warranty? Am I going to marry this job if it goes sideways?

e. The by the book rate has nothing to do with how long a tech can perform an operation. My buddy holds the record at a dealership. He billed 38 hours of labor in one day. He is good, is organized and has the real estate to perform he makes money. If the guys takes 10 hours to do a job that pays two - that is all he gets paid for. Its a simple system.

The press has no interest in this its just the way the business runs. A BMW dealer is out there to make money - and a DIY'er on a 15 year old car just doesn't spell money.

Hope this helps.

D.-

[Black 535i]

I had some work done on my 92 535i two years ago at BMW Mississauga and they were very accomodating and knowledgable. My clutch went out on the Thanksgiving day weekend while on vacation there and they did everything they could to get me out of there ASAP but I had to wait for the part. Once it was in they got me out of there in 3 hours or so. A little more expensive than my indy here in Chicago but beggars can't be choosers. Ask for Brad McCallum if he is still there.

Thanks for the insight. It pays to shop around. I'm curious though, why just dealers now? Based on my thread and mostly Mark's help...


Bimmersport
1765 Shawson Dr, Unit 13
Mississauga, Ontario
905-670-9200
416-823-2BMW

Autotrend on Broadview
http://www.autotrend.net/

Lakeside Motors at Kennedy and Lawrence

BRUNO! in 'sauga

And for light work, I go to my indy, Willie's Auto (Markham). If that guy were more honest, he'd be out of business.

[Jay 535i]

I'm curious though, why just dealers now?

Just for my own amusement, and the community's benefit.

Derek, what you've written doesn't address the simple fact that the dealer told me that she charges what the book says, period. And that all BMW dealers use the same book. So, at best, if everything you said is true, she lied. At worst, her lie is part of a conspiracy to defraud BMW customers.

I can understand how some confusion about interpreting the book could lead to this, but a company as big and presumably well-organized as BMW shouldn't have every dealer making up their own ****. That's just bad business. I mean, how hard can it be to devise some sort of standard? Imagine if every McDonald's made up their own price for a Big Mac. And their customers haven't even written five-figure checks.

BTW, FWIW, the parts came from the dealer. The diagnosis came from this forum, and turned out to be 100% right. My indy did the work in the end.

[dacoyote]

Let this horse die... please

Some dealers are crooks... so are some Indys... whats the point...

you know.. water is wet...

[Jay 535i]

Let this horse die... please

Some dealers are crooks... so are some Indys... whats the point...

you know.. water is wet...

My point is that there appears to be a problem in the system, and that customers pay the price. If BMW dealerships are SYSTEMATICALLY defrauding customers, then I certainly think that is worth discussing.

I'm not making genalizations or trying to devise some pantheon of garage goodwill. I'm talking only about BMW dealers. What others do is irrelevant in this discussion.

If you don't find this thread helpful, you don't have to participate, but I am trying to save others the aggravation that I went through, and also trying to get some answers. If someone tried to steal $600 from you, you'd want answers, too.

When/if I hear a reasonable explanation, I'll let it go.

[Derek A.]

Without seeing the car. She talked to a tech and got a number,probably from memory. At bestm tried to bring it up in KSD and they probably choose different opertations or a combination of operations.

So yes - its all based on BMW information - which is the same. No - there is not a conspiracy. Its all about qualifying a sale. You don't invest time and effort with a guy on the phone who already has parts and a dignosis. You schmooze the guy who is clueless and has his car already at the shop. All part of the service business.

[dacoyote]

My point is that we spent what... 68 posts last time talking about this....

You know... Ford 5 years ago was the same thing... in fact the price was different talking to a diff service manager.... I bet it is the same thing today.

There are serveral people on the board that work at dealerships. They posted their 2cents about it.

It's like the people that ask... I have a 55 - 60 mph shimmy... whats wrong....

[Jay 535i]

So yes - its all based on BMW information - which is the same. No - there is not a conspiracy. Its all about qualifying a sale. You don't invest time and effort with a guy on the phone who already has parts and a dignosis. You schmooze the guy who is clueless and has his car already at the shop. All part of the service business.

No doubt you're right. But I still don't understand.

I was told by the dealer that there is a book. The book lists prices. I pay what the book says.

Is the book so vague or open to interpretation that 5 different dealers can derrive five different quotes from it? You seem to be saying "yes". If that's the case, what's the point of the book?

These dealers are not supposed to compete against one another. They're supposed to serve their customers. So why is there no consensus on labor rates?

I appreciate what you're saying about qualifying a sale, but I don't see how that's relevant. If what I was told is true, then giving me a quote is as simple as looking it up in a book. My 'qualifications' are irrelevant. Unless they're being used to fudge the book rates, which, I assert, is just plain wrong, and contrary to what the dealer told me.

I'm not gonna argue any more. If you think I'm making a big deal out of nothing, that's fine. I frankly don't see how you can fail to see the inequity going on here. It's like calling up McDonalds and asking how much a Big Mac is, and rather than getting a straight answer the reply is a mix of what's written on the menu, what the cashier feels like on that day, and how hungry I am.