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duckloads
09-10-2014, 09:20 PM
I've been away from this site for a long time, but I'm back with a 1995 525iT. I'm having a bunch of electrical problems.

When trying to start the car, I get full dash lights, but no action from the starter. I have no power windows, sunroof, radio, or door locks. the wipers only work on high speed and don't park. The horn blows, headlights work, and cabin air blower works on all speeds.


Battery was going dead overnight.
Found broken 3rd brake light wires
Found broken rear window heater wires.
Found faulty micro-switch at rear window lock, failed closed (making relay module click repeatedly)
Measured 3.5+/- amp draw on battery even with the above repaired
The RH tailgate wiring harness at tailgate is good, but I haven't cut the loom to check the LH tailgate harness.
BOTH fusible links are fine
All fuses are fine

I don't know yet where the current draw is coming from. I still have to pull fuses to check.

Any and all ideas and advise would sure be appreciated.

Chris

duckloads
09-11-2014, 08:52 AM
update.

Correction...The current draw is 2.5 amps NOT 3.5.

I pulled all fuses, the relay module and the general module. No change in current draw. (not sure how that is possible)
I cut the LH tailgate wiring loom to inspect the wires. They were all perfect.

Need help.

Thanks
Chris

duckloads
09-11-2014, 06:51 PM
I think I found the center of the electrical universe as for as the gremlins I'm having are concerned.

I have NO power at the starter terminal 50 with key in start position. I check power at the ignition switch. Got battery voltage at big red wire. I even have battery voltage at the black/yellow wire with key in start position. That black/yellow wire changes to black/green at big connector under dash and continues to the electric immobilizer control module (starter relay) located behind the LH kick panel speaker.

The wiring diagrams show the output of the starter relay to starter terminal 50 to be black/yellow. I HAVE NO power at the output of the relay.

I removed the relay and jumped between the two wires at the relay connector. FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!!

Now to order a new relay and hope all else is well in my (car's) electrical universe.

632 Regal
09-11-2014, 08:34 PM
I wish I could add something to help, but your updates sound like your going in the right direction. relay a probability, the voltage drain I have no clue about. Did you check the 2 main fuses from the battery? I think the roof, windows and locks are on the same line.

duckloads
09-12-2014, 07:26 AM
yep, both fuse links near the battery are good. I checked visually and with a multimeter.
There are 9 terminals on the electronic immobilizer control relay (starter relay) I cant find any reference as to what all the terminals are for. I only found the two wires for the starter circuit. Hopefully the other wires send signals to fix my other issues.

632 Regal
09-13-2014, 10:20 AM
Sounds like the immobilizer is in theft mode, if new relay don't work then it is most likely the theft unit. Took me 6 months to figure it out on the 850 intermittent then no start issue. Figured the 1 wire and cut it, the whole world was good again.

duckloads
09-13-2014, 05:51 PM
632Regal Thanks, where/what is the immobilizer unit, and what wire did you cut?

632 Regal
09-13-2014, 10:28 PM
632Regal Thanks, where/what is the immobilizer unit, and what wire did you cut?

Hahaha... let me look

632 Regal
09-13-2014, 10:42 PM
It's at the end but a worthy read for the 6 months of issue. I would not recommend just cutting a wire without finding out which one it is supposed to be on your year/model. Good luck and many well wishes my friend.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php/44049-850-no-start?highlight=immobilizer

duckloads
09-14-2014, 09:56 PM
well Mr. Regal, I am impressed and even envious in your level of (in)sanity. I've always wanted an 8 Series, because of their beauty, but I've not gotten to (or past) the level of mental maturity for that, yet. :)

I have owned a couple of e38 7series, and they nearly broke me.

thanks for the read.

duckloads
09-16-2014, 09:34 PM
Well, My new electronic starter immobilizer module came in today, and still NO START, no windows, no sunroof, just as before.(starter relay mounted behind the LH kick panel speaker)

I have Power to the starter switch
Power to the above relay, but no power out of the relay.

Something that supposed to send a signal to the relay isn't. Or something has the car shut down.

632 Regal
09-19-2014, 08:35 PM
Did the immobilizer get programmed to the car keys? (I have no idea if this pertains) reading back it might not.

Still have to isolate that wire and cut it unless you can figure what is wrong. For me the thought of someone trying to steal the car was a non issue, for you it might be.

95...

Okay man, pull the rear seat and have a go at those fuses. I found some real stupid stuff going on and the rear fuses were the culprit. According to the schematics they had nothing to do with the problem but BAM! replaced a dead fuse and good to go. Another major issue could be the wires in the hinge area, both of my E34 and the E31 had major wire shorting issues back there. Of course they have nothing to do with anything but if bad will cause all types of electrical gremlins.

What area you at?

duckloads
09-20-2014, 02:58 PM
About two weeks ago, when all this starter, I thought the battery was dead. I removed the rear seat and heard a clicking noise in the relay module. I traced this to the tailgate window's micro switch stuck in the closed position. I replaced the micro switch, and the only broken wires were for the window defroster.

Both fuse links are good, and I have power across all fuses under the back seat. I swapped out relays for the General Module. still nothing. I have all the appropriate power at the ignition switch.

It turns out the relay I replaced was only a starter immobilizer relay. My car was mfg'd in 06/94. Somehow that makes it an early production 1995 model. It DOES NOT have the immobilizer-anti theft system requiring a coded key. No microchips in my keys.

I just ordered a used general module from Bavarian Auto Recycling. I hope for the best when it arrives.

Bill R.
09-20-2014, 03:57 PM
temporarily jumper across your fusible links even though you say they are good, sometimes they have a hairline crack thats shows continuity until you put a load on it.

duckloads
09-20-2014, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the idea. I've had the 80amp fuse link in my hand and it looked fine. I jumped across it anyway per suggestion, but still no change.

shogun
09-20-2014, 10:20 PM
What about the second fusible link, did you jumper that too?

On 09-12-2014 you mentioned on RF: duckloads

I think I found the center of the electrical universe as for as the gremlins I'm having are concerned. I have NO power at the starter terminal 50 with key in start position. I check power at the ignition switch. Got battery voltage at big red wire. I even have battery voltage at the black/yellow wire with key in start position. That black/yellow wire changes to black/green at big connector under dash and continues to the electric immobilizer control module (starter relay) located behind the LH kick panel speaker.
The wiring diagrams show the output of the starter relay to starter terminal 50 to be black/yellow. I HAVE NO power at the output of the relay. I removed the relay and jumped between the two wires at the relay connector. FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!!
Now to order a new relay and hope all else is well in my (car's) electrical universe.

duckloads
09-21-2014, 06:57 PM
I visually checked it and also had battery voltage on both sides of the second fuse link. Nope I didn't jumper across it.

632 Regal
09-25-2014, 12:02 PM
I would jump it anyway, might be good with no load but not connecting with a load.

duckloads
09-26-2014, 08:18 PM
d.loads here again.

latest update.......I blew another $10 and replaced the 80 amp fuse link. No change, but then I knew the original one was OK.

I checked power in and out of the General Module relay that lives between the GM and the windshield wiper relay.

I have 12V (battery voltage) at both the power (large wire) and winding (sm wire) input. I also have 12v at the winding output. BUT There is NO voltage at the power output to the General Module.

The relay is good, I swapped a couple around. Its a generic brownish colored relay. They all work.

BUT I still DO NOT have 12V from the relay to the GM...

Any ideas?

nk530
09-27-2014, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure what all goes into the immobilizer signal. The module should be looking at a bunch of different switches and sensors and such. That is why Regal and I have opted to simply find the wire coming from the ant-theft module and cut it rather than try and track down the source of the problem.

632 Regal
09-27-2014, 09:45 PM
Yep cut the fvker, this is no longer a $60K vehicle.

632 Regal
09-27-2014, 09:46 PM
You fixt it in the other thread

duckloads
09-28-2014, 09:48 AM
My car was made in 06/94. somehow it's a 1995 model.

I can't find any type of anti-theft device. A photo or explanation from someone re: its location sure would be great.

nk530
09-29-2014, 09:29 AM
This is buried in the other thread (850 no start).

http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/E38_EWSI+II.pdf

Although, this doesn't seem to explain the windows and sunroof being locked out. Problem within the GM parhaps? On mine, the "smart" relay was giving the OK for the starter to spin, but it was still giving a "no-start" signal to the DME thereby cutting fuel and spark. It sounds like you have a different situation, though. A bad General Module that won't process signals correctly? A high signal from the GM should mean the doors are in double lock. Sounds like no signal from the GM to the starter relay is what you want.

632 Regal
09-30-2014, 05:39 PM
My car was made in 06/94. somehow it's a 1995 model.

I can't find any type of anti-theft device. A photo or explanation from someone re: its location sure would be great.

Mine was born the same day and was also called a 95. The immobilizer will be under the rear seat drivers side. There are a lot of hidden fuses under the seat you will want to verify. I had to unhook the immobilizer (unbolt the unit) to access the hidden fuses, seemed to be a hack install but it's the factory unit. I'm not sure what thread I read it in but someone said they simply unplugged the unit and the car started & ran as normal after.

duckloads
10-01-2014, 12:12 PM
Thanks 623 Regal. I've removed the rear power distribution box (GM, RM, fuses, etc) in an attempt to locate the anti-theft module. The only thing buried is the on-board computer module. I also found a green connector behind the box. It looks like the connector went to something with very small pins.

When I first bought the car, I drove it home for 3 hrs and then around town for a week before it shut down on me.

The replacement general module from Bavarian Auto Recycling is at my house. I'm not. Tomorrow, I'll be able to install it and hope for the best. Any special dance or acts of voodoo I'm supposed to perform?

632 Regal
10-01-2014, 07:15 PM
I never had to deal with a GM before, shogun will chime in here with links I'm sure.

duckloads
10-02-2014, 08:27 AM
Some great news. I installed the replacement GM, re-connected the battery, turned the ignition key to the "ON" position, waited about a minute, turned the key to "START" and the old wagon fired right up. The radio even started working again.

NOW, I still DO NOT have any power windows, door locks, sunroof, or windshield wipers (they only work on high).

Do I need to have the replacement GM coded to the car? It is a different part number than what REALOEM states it should be. The people at Bavarian Auto Recycling told me they were all the same.

shogun
10-02-2014, 09:02 AM
What is the part number you have now installed and what is the p/n of the one you replaced?

Here the details, but there is no coding:
SUBJECT: New General Modules (GM) MODELS: 7 Series (E32), 5 Series (E34) - Vehicles produced 9/91 and later
Situation: New general modules have been used in production since September 1991 in all E32 and E34 models. The software has been completely revised (details of these revisions are found in the attachment to this Service Information Bulletin). Part numbers have been changed to reflect these revisions, as listed below, as of September 1991. Model Part Number E32 61 35 8 356 095, E34-up to 61 35 8 356 095 9/91 production, E34-9/91 and later production 61 35 8 355 812
Note: E34 vehicles produced 9/91 and later have different central locking system components from earlier E34 vehicles; therefore, P/N 61 35 8 355 812 is used only in E34 vehicles produced 9/91 and later, P/N 61 35 8 356 095 can be used in E34 vehicles produced prior to 9/91, and in all E32 vehicles.

When the general module is connected to the vehicles electrical system, it will recognize (and store in memory) the vehicle configuration, such as:
- with/without power windows
- With/without power sunroof
- with/without wiper contact pressure control
- with/without headlight washers
Important Information
All general modules must be plugged in only after disconnecting the vehicle's battery. If the vehicle's battery is connected when the GM is installed, undefined signal contacts can cause an incorrect vehicle configuration to be stored, resulting in the impairment of
one or more of the above-mentioned systems. If one or more of the GM functions are impaired in this matter, the GM can be "cleared" by disconnecting the vehicle's battery for at least ten seconds.
GM Function Changes E32/E34 (Beginning with 9/91 Production)
- Repeat and Time interlock for headlight washers:
Time interlock: 3 minutes
Headlight washing at fifth windshield washing after time interlock.
- Intensive washing pump operating time reduced from 3 to 2 seconds
- Minimum interval for intermittent wiping is programmable down to 2 seconds (previously 3 seconds)
- Increased wiper contact pressure during windshield washing cycle is now also provided during dry wiping portion of the cycle (previously only during washer pump operation).
- Previously, the GM would react to opposing signals (eg., an unlock signal while trying to lock, as with a defective microswitch) by carrying out the first command, then the opposing command (e.g., locking, followed immediately by unlocking).
Repeating the first command then results in carrying out that command (e.g., try to lock again, and locking is now carried out).
This function ("Asynchronous Position") is omitted in the new GM for all E32 models and E34 models prior to 9/91 (P/N 61 35 8 356 095), and remains in the new GM for E34 models after 9/91 (P/N 61 35 8 355 812) only for central locking commands "lock" and "double-lock".
- After unlocking is performed due to crash sensor activation, the locking command is now reactivated by double-locking with the key from either the driver's or passenger's door.
- The "one-touch" operation of windows has been expanded to include all four windows in the opening direction. The driver's window still has "one-touch" operation in both opening and closing directions. Interruption of the "one-touch" feature of the driver's window in the closing direction is still accomplished by depressing any window switch (in any direction), or by depressing the sunroof switch in the "tilt" direction (provided the sunroof is not already in the "tilt" position). Interruption of the "one-touch" feature of the sunroof in the closing direction is still accomplished by depressing the sunroof switch (in any direction).
- The switch-off delay of the interior lights which occurs after entering the vehicle and closing the driver's door has been reduced from 20 seconds to 15 seconds.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Note that this is a relatively old Service Info and many of these part numbers have been replaced meanwhile.

duckloads
10-02-2014, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the help. The replacement part number is 61 35 8 355 817. I'm not sure of the original part no. The green case fell apart in my hand when I first tried to remove it. I never found the pieces with the part no.

632 Regal
10-02-2014, 09:02 PM
NOW, I still DO NOT have any power windows, door locks, sunroof, or windshield wipers (they only work on high).
It is a different part number than what REALOEM states it should be. The people at Bavarian Auto Recycling told me they were all the same.

Look up what the new modules number is for, google, ebay etc to narrow down what year and stuff. According to Shoguns reply it might in fact not be the one you need. Bavauto just scraps and sells used crap, they do not know everything about everything.

Glad to hear she runs! At least your off to a good start.

duckloads
10-04-2014, 01:46 PM
I obtained two other GM's and a replacement RM. Engine still starts, but STILL no power door locks, windows or sunroof. can't open rear hatch (wagon) windshield wipers function only on high speed without the park function.


help

shogun
10-04-2014, 06:29 PM
Thanks for the help. The replacement part number is 61 35 8 355 817. I'm not sure of the original part no. The green case fell apart in my hand when I first tried to remove it. I never found the pieces with the part no.
That part number is from a E34, I found some in the net: GM BMW E34 61358355817. And my BMW ETK says: Recondioned part no. for the part # 61358355817 is part # 61358359538.Part 61358359538 (AT-Basic module) was found on the following vehicles: E34: 525i Touring, 525i, 530i Touring,4 530i,535i, 540i, E34 M5 3.6, 518i, 518i Touring,520i Touring, 520i, 524td, 525ix Touring, 525ix, 525td, 525td Touring,525tds, 525tds Touring, M5 Touring, M5 3.6, M5 3.8.

I personally believe the GM is not only the problem, maybe part of it. But if it helped to replaced the GM (although this is strange to me with that problem you have), I would dig more in that area under rear seat in the electric lines, connections for corrosion, broken wires etc. Has there ever been water under the rear seat?
AND the area rear door (tailgate) wire loom!: in your first post you mentioned:
Found broken rear window heater wires.
Found faulty micro-switch at rear window lock, failed closed (making relay module click repeatedly)
Measured 3.5+/- amp draw on battery even with the above repaired
The RH tailgate wiring harness at tailgate is good, but I haven't cut the loom to check the LH tailgate harness.

The tailgate problem is also not 100% solved, start there first. BOTH sides wire looms.

duckloads
10-04-2014, 07:25 PM
I spent 1/2 day today digging around under the rear seat power dist box. I found corrosion in a group of 4-red/white wires. I cut them back to good wire and soldered them together. This seemed to have fixed the radio. confirmed with wiring diagrams those were for the stereo system.

Two other bunches of small gage, crimped wires looked suspicious, so I soldered them also. I'm not sure what they went to. No other functions returned.

I sprayed the GM connectors with contact cleaner, and cleaned the RM connections with a small pick.

I've removed and cleaned all the grounds I could find under the rear seat. They were all in great shape to begin with.

Yep there has been water under rear seat. Yesterday, I removed both front seats and rear section of carpet. the carpet was very wet. The front carpet was dry. Everything is dry now.

The tailgate issues have all been sorted out. I cut the LH and RH wiring looms at the tailgate and all wires were perfect.

I haven't measured for any current draw lately.

Thanks for the help.

shogun
10-04-2014, 07:58 PM
Just to give you an idea where all the wires are UNDER the carpet, pics when we parted a 1988 E32 750iL http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/270025/
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/236235/

duckloads
10-05-2014, 09:27 AM
My current draw is down to 0.23 amps. I've at least done something right.

duckloads
10-05-2014, 10:57 AM
Armed with pages from the electrical diagrams and my multi-meter, I found TWO MORE corroded spliced connections under the rear seat power distribution box. I totally missed these yesterday. I had to cut the wires back a couple of inches to find good, clean copper to solder.

ITS BACK! ITS ALL BACK!!!!! EVERYTHING WORKS AS IT SHOULD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One good benefit of my nearly month-long efforts, is that I got a GM with one-touch-down power windows. Plus some perfectly good GM's and a relay module to sell.

Thanks everyone.

The moral of the story is that if all fuse links are good, and all other crap is good, THEN THERE ARE CORRODED CRIMPED CONNECTIONS UNDER THE REAR POWER DISTROBUTION BOX.

Holy crap. I'm tired.

Now to pack and head back to my day job two states away. (driving my Nissan truck)

632 Regal
10-05-2014, 02:38 PM
Great news! I never heard of corroded wires back there, any clue why the carpet is getting wet back there?

nk530
10-05-2014, 05:46 PM
Nice work! Glad to hear it.

shogun
10-05-2014, 06:07 PM
Great news! I never heard of corroded wires back there, any clue why the carpet is getting wet back there?
Quite often found, especially when the sunroof drain hoses are blocked or the drain holes under the doors are clogged and the water cannot drain out, so it finds a new way into the car.
Also there could be mislocated rubber plugs in the chassis under the carpet (the rubber plugs are from chassis paiting process, after the paiting process these plugs come into because the whole raw chassis went thru a painting 'bath' and then the paint had to be drained out of the chassis.
On the E32 even leaking taillight or trunk lid gaskets can cause this, the water finds it's way from trunk to the area when the ZKE components and battery are under the rear seat. Maybe also same on E34.

Ever had a look under the spare tire? Maybe you have a small swimming pool in there.

In any case you have to find the leak, otherwise you will have the same problem again.

Wire looms under carpet
http://www.ods.org/~doofoo/95M3/11-07-10/DSC_0548.jpg
http://www.ods.org/~doofoo/95M3/11-07-10/DSC_0549.jpg
remove the carpet http://www.ods.org/~doofoo/95M3/11-07-10/DSC_0543.jpg
http://www.ods.org/~doofoo/95M3/11-14-10/DSC_0551.jpg
http://www.ods.org/~doofoo/95M3/11-14-10/DSC_0552.jpg

It can also leak in in the front if these drain holes are clogged http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/94/56/00/ablauf10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/jerbil/DSC00060.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/jerbil/DSC00061.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/jerbil/DSC00063.jpg
http://www.classiccarprojectshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/IMG_2491.jpg